Another terminology question..."Old Vine"

I often see a wine at a restaurant where they list the name of the wine and next to it the term "Old Vine". What exactly does this mean? Is it only used for US wines? What varietal is it? Is it usually Zinfandel or a blend? TIA!

The short answer: The wine in question is produced from grapes picked off of old vines.

The long answer: Vines can grow continually for over a hundred years, after 20 years or so the yield of grapes is lower, but the flavor is more intense. So an "old vine" wine would have a decreased production, theoretically a better/more intense flavor, and probably a higher value/cost.

There's no legal distinction, though. So whether a winery thinks an old vine is 50 years old or 10 is up to them.

Answer found on Wikipedia.

My understanding is that there is no exact criteria by which "old vines" are defined, which leaves producers a lot of liberty in what they'll put on the lable. I personally think of old vines as being older than 70 years.

This term is applied to all types of vines (you'll see the term "vielle vignes" on French wine).

The older the vine, the less leaves and other "superfluous" growth the vine puts out, and the more concentrated the fruit.

At least that's my understanding...there are plenty here who know way more than me so someone please correct me if I'm wrong or expand on what I've said.

Oops, posted before I saw Ryan's answer!

The others have answered well. However, it can apply to almost any variety. For instance, some Ontario wineries make "Old Vines Foch". Looking at vine age from the other end, young vines do not produce the best wines. Chateau Lafite, for instance, segregates all wines from vines under 10 years old to be blended into their second label "Carruades". The name Carruades comes from a piece of property that Lafite bought from next door neighbor Ch. Mouton in the 1850s. After purchasing the property, Lafite tore out all of Mouton's vines and replanted with their own clones, but kept the wine separate until the vines had properly matured.

Thanks guys for your replies! Very informative.

So if I see, for example, "Marietta Old Vine" on a restaurant menu, how do I know what it is? Am I just supposed to be familiar with the wine and know the varietal or blend?

Well it seems you wouldn't really know. Basically, follow these steps.

1. If the wine is in a specific section on the wine list [i.e. listed under "Cabernet Savignon"] then I'd imagine it's sort of like a "Reserve", the vineyard's "old vine" selection of CabSav.

2. Ask the waiter what it is.

3. Ask to see a bottle and look for yourself.

You picked an interesting one in Marietta, because according to their website it's a blend of more than 5 grape varietals, including Zinfandel, Cabernet, Petite Syrah, Carignane and Syrah. Now the question is... do ALL of the grapes used in the blend come from old vines? Or just the major ones?

Thanks Ryan! The Marietta was listed under the "Reds" section of a French Bistro we go to. I always thought of "Old Vine" as being only Zin. So I looked up some wines, and low and behold, they can describe any old vine I guess. So I was really confused as to what was in it.

Now the question is... do ALL of the grapes used in the blend come from old vines? Or just the major ones?

Exactly what I was wondering Ryan...hmmmm.

The Marietta Old Vines blend has been around for 42 vintages, Maria. It's a wonderfully consistent blend, although Lot 15 lives in my memory even now.

Marietta is a small winery but very responsive to questions. My impression is that all of the components come from older vines, but Old Vines is a blend, and changes from year to year. The folks there are very responsive to questions; I'd be interested in what they would say about your question.

Drop them an email at info@mariettacellars.com and see what they say.

Regards, Bob

Thanks Bob! I sent the E-mail and I will post their response as soon as I receive it.

To answer the other part of your question, it's not only American. "Vieilles Vignes" is pretty common on French labels, as is "Viñas Viejas" on Spanish wines (what is the term in Italian?- would know it if I saw it). But you probably see Old Vines (and variants- Gnarly, Ancient, etc) more on CA Zin than anything else.

Maria, a related phrase is "field blend"; it's primarily a California term used to describe vineyards planted by Italian immigrants with a variety of different vines. There's a fascinating discussion of the two phrases at the link below; extract:

Bradley Gray (BG): Explain what a field blend is, and how they are different from other “Old Vine” Zinfandels.

Joel Peterson, Ravenswood Winery: To me, a field blend is like cooking with more than one spice. It adds lots of personality, an array of flavors and some great ripeness. The old Italian farts who planted these vineyards knew what they were doing. They understood the physiology of their plants, but they never said a lot. Getting information from them was a right-of-passage, and you tended to hang on every word.

More here.

Like some of the other unregulated terms discussed on this thread, the safest bet is decide whose "old vines" you like. Some almost sound like oxymorons; take Bogle, California, Old Vine Zinfandel, for example. From the name you would they collect the grapes from old vines all over the place. Yet, this is a consistantly nice wine, that sells at the $10 price point. Love it!

Cheers, Carl

To answer the other part of your question, it's not only American. "Vieilles Vignes" is pretty common on French labels, as is "Viñas Viejas" on Spanish wines (what is the term in Italian?- would know it if I saw it). But you probably see Old Vines (and variants- Gnarly, Ancient, etc) more on CA Zin than anything else.

I believe the Italian term is "Vigne Vecchie."

Thanks again everyone for all the info!

Dale and Andrew, thanks for that clarification...definitely helps me out!

Bob - excellent article. I haven't heard the term "field blend" yet. Wow...so many different terms...it can definitely be confusing.

So would it be safe to say that if the varietal of an "Old Vine" wine on a restaurant menu isn't mentioned, that it is a blend? And that if it is a California "Old Vine" that it is probably a Zinfandel based blend?

Fair bets, Maria, on all fronts. Here's one way of figuring the odds.

I searched all the wines currently in Cellar Tracker with the "Old Vines" in the name of the wines. Then sorted by varietals. Here's a rough idea of what's currently in the database, which seems generally consistent with my subjective impressions from prowling through tasting notes and retail stores over the years.

"Old Vines"

Zinfandel 50.59%
Grenache 20.96%
Syrah 6.09%
Cabernet Sauvignon 5.32%
Red Blend 5.11%

Pinot Noir 3.07%
Touriga Nacional 1.51%
Red Rhone 1.20%
Chardonnay 0.89%
Petite Sirah 0.77%,
Mourvedre 0.68%

and 48 other varities with tiny percentages.

A two thirds of "Old Vine" wines came from the US, and almost all of them are from California:

USA (11,684 bottles & 457 pending, 67.66%, avg. 2001.8

California (10,896 bottles & 450 pending, 63.23%, avg. 2001.8
Washington (580 bottles, 3.23%, avg. 2001.0)
Oregon (142 bottles & 7 pending, 0.83%, avg. 2004.1)
New York (26 bottles, 0.14%, avg. 2000.1)
Michigan (19 bottles, 0.11%, avg. 2003.8
Virginia (16 bottles, 0.09%, avg. 2001.9)
Illinois (3 bottles, 0.02%, avg. N.V.)
Minnesota (1 bottle, 0.01%, avg. N.V.)
Ohio (1 bottle, 0.01%, avg. N.V.)

Australia had almost all the others:
Australia (4,443 bottles & 127 pending, 25.47%, avg. 2001.5)

Spain, in third place with 3.1%, sometimes uses the English and sometimes the Spanish phrase for old vines.

A bit over half of the California "Old Vines" are Zinfandel or Zinfandel based, with a large scattering of other wines, many of them Rhone varieties:

California (10,896 bottles & 450 pending, 63.23%, avg. 2001.8 )

Zinfandel (8,440 bottles & 381 pending, 49.16%, avg. 2002.1)
Red Blend (867 bottles & 24 pending, 4.97%, avg. 2002.0)
Cabernet Sauvignon (425 bottles & 1 pending, 2.37%, avg. 1996.6)
Pinot Noir (397 bottles & 16 pending, 2.30%, avg. 2002.0)
Petite Sirah (136 bottles & 2 pending, 0.77%, avg. 2000.5)

I'd say your instincts are pretty good, Maria, especially for a beginner.

Regards, Bob

[David M. Bueker]

Most California wines that are blends of multiple varieties (and it's varieties, not varietals) just have the proprietary name (e.g. Marietta Old Vines, Ridge Lytton Springs, and just to throw a cab-based wine in here Phelps Insignia) on the label.

The rule is that if 75% of the wine comes from one variety then the wine can have the name of that variety on the label (i.e. it is a varietal wine...in this case varietal is correct). In practice, most wineries that establish a proprietary blend will not put the dominant variety on the label even if it meets the requirement. It just causes confusion when a "brand" has already been established. (See the Ridge Lytton Springs and Geyserville as prime examples of this.)

As has been said, most of the old vines wines from California are zin-based blands.

Spain, in third place with 3.1%, sometimes uses the English and sometimes the Spanish phrase for old vines.

Bob, is your figure for spain just including those that use the English term? I'm betting a huge percentage of those are the Vina Alarba old vines Grenache.

If you search Vieilles Vignes, it turns up 30,000 or so bottles.

Bob - Very interesting! Thank you for sorting that out!

(and it's varieties, not varietals)

Wow...thank you so much David for pointing that out to me. I have been misusing "varietals" now for a long time. I am so glad that you clarified that. I will make sure that I use the proper terms in the future. Thanks again. I can't believe I have been saying the wrong thing all this time....uggghhh .

The rule is that if 75% of the wine comes from one variety then the wine can have the name of that variety on the label (i.e. it is a varietal wine...in this case varietal is correct).

David, don't some state laws require an even higher percentage?

As has been said, most of the old vines wines from California are zin-based blands.

Freudian slip?

varitals/varieties

Thanks, David. I tried to make the distinction clear -- Cellar Tracker uses "varietal"; I think I used the word "variety" when summarizing the results. You might want to drop a note to Eric and set him straight.

I've found that he is very responsive to any critique of Cellar Tracker. http://www.cellartracker.com/about.asp

Regards, Bob

Dale, I used only the US/English phrase. I'm sure other languages would turn up very different results.

But, I was trying to replicate what a US restaurant wine menu person might use to describe the wines on offer. In response to Maria's question, basiically.

And, to be absolutely frank, this was my first attempt to run a study of the database. I'm sure that there are other terms that would lead to very interesting results.

As I've sometimes written before, "more anon".

Regards, Bob [off to see what the Aussies describe as "Old Vines".]

Wow, did I blow that one; I was certain Shiraz would win in a landslide. Grenache? Three to one over Shiraz? How can that be?

Australia (4,443 bottles & 127 pending, 25.45%, avg. 2001.5)

Grenache (3,151 bottles & 25 pending, 17.68%, avg. 2001.3)
Shiraz (879 bottles & 47 pending, 5.16%, avg. 2001.7)
Red Rhone Blend (217 bottles, 1.21%, avg. 2001.3)
Cabernet Sauvignon (76 bottles & 52 pending, 0.71%, avg. 2003.9)
Grenache Blend (42 bottles, 0.23%, avg. 2003.0)
Sémillon (31 bottles, 0.17%, avg. 2002.5)
Cabernet-Shiraz Blend (15 bottles & 3 pending, 0.10%, avg. 2000.7)
Muscadelle (9 bottles, 0.05%, avg. N.V.)
Muscat Blend (7 bottles, 0.04%, avg. N.V.)
Shiraz Blend (6 bottles, 0.03%, avg. 1998.5)
Riesling (5 bottles, 0.03%, avg. 2003.0)
Mourvedre Blend (3 bottles, 0.02%, avg. 1992.0)
Port Blend (1 bottle, 0.01%, avg. N.V.)
Touriga Nacional (1 bottle, 0.01%, avg. 1992.0)

Regards, Bob

Coming in here a tad late but a very interesting thread and as usual terrific research from our Bob R. I went to cellar-tracker too, 829 entries for "Old Vines", 56 pages of TNs. There was even an Old Vines Chenin Blanc!
Myself, I have fond memories of my early days in the colony here, drinking Dry Creek Old Vines Zin!!

Need a pic, Maria.........do a google "images" search.