Corked, but consumed notwithstanding

I don't know, I must be turning into the "kinder, gentler" me!

On Saturday evening, my wife, myself and another couple we've known for the past 15 years went to a nice Italian Restaurant. The place isn't 4 star or anything, but the food is really quite good and the owners are very cordial. The wife is the hostess and the husband is touted as the head cook. I assume he is something of a figurehead, as he spends a lot of time in the dining room schmoozing the clientele.

The wine choosing fell to me since our friends know me to be a "wine nut", and I decided to try something a little different. The Malvasia I ordered showed up at the table and the owner gent poured me a little, which I too briefly tasted. Once the wine was poured around and I really sampled it, it turned out to be totally Madirized. I called the owner back and asked him to taste the wine, explaining the problem. Although he didn't seem to know what I meant by Madirized, he agreed that the wine was over the hill and asked me what we would like instead. I told him to bring something he felt would be nice with the appetizers and he suggested an Orvieto. He brings out the Orvieto with much fanfare and praise, pours it, I taste it, and it's corked! I just couldn't do it to the guy! I figured what the hell, 1 bottle, 4 people, I'll just soldier through it as long as no one else really complains, which no one did. I really don't know if they were thinking the same thing I was, didn't notice it, or thought they'd seriously overestimated my wine nutedness!

Well, I'm curious, have any of you folks done anything like this, or am I going soft!

Fortunately, the rest of the evening's wines were exceptional. We had a really fragrant and tasty Morellino di Scansano with the entrees and a fabulous Recioto dela Valpollicela with dessert. Next time I visit this restaurant I think I'll stick to the reds! Tom V

I have indeed drunk corked wine to ease a social situation and will probably do it again, but I'm tending more and more to shout out when a wine is corked. I think in the vast majority of cases more is to be gained than lost, economically and in enjoyment terms, by returning a corked bottle.

I also see it as a matter of principle; if we do not returned corked bottles the wine trade is going to keep supplying us with them. I don' t want to get involved with arguments over percentages or solutions (though I think that is inevitable), but it in my mind TCA taint is intolerable. In what other part of the food and drink inductry would fault rates even as high as 0.1% be acceptable?

I am more tolerant of other faults. Partly because I am less good at recognising them, and partly because they are objectively often less clear cut than TCA-taint. At what point is oxidation a fault, as opposed to a stylistic feature or a natural consequence of age? I have in fact knowingly bought vastly discounted bottles of oxidised wine because I decided I liked the wine even if it did not taste as intended!

Well, I'm curious, have any of you folks done anything like this, or am I going soft!

Over time the need to be right blends with the grace of effectiveness. Someone would be right to keep sending bottles back, but would that person be an effective host or guest, unless wine appreciation was the purpose of the dinner?

Personally it drives me crazy that so many people use singular verbs with plural subjects. Almost nobody says, "there are a lot of things to consider" anymore. They say, "there's a lot of things to consider." But I would be a pest to point out the problem 100 times a day.

Covert

Almost nobody says, "there are a lot of things to consider" anymore. They say, "there's a lot of things to consider." But I would be a pest to point out the problem 100 times a day.

Covert

You must mix with the wrong sort of crowd.

In the early days I have probably drunk corked wines in social settings where I was unsure of the taint and did not want to cause a fuss without being sure.

But, if you were sure, then it does not seem to be too difficult.

"Waiter this is corked, may we have another bottle"

"Yes, here you are sir."

Seems pretty simple to me.

Well, I'm curious, have any of you folks done anything like this, or am I going soft!

Over time the need to be right blends with the grace of effectiveness. Someone would be right to keep sending bottles back, but would that person be an effective host or guest, unless wine appreciation was the purpose of the dinner?

Personally it drives me crazy that so many people use singular verbs with plural subjects. Almost nobody says, "there are a lot of things to consider" anymore. They say, "there's a lot of things to consider." But I would be a pest to point out the problem 100 times a day.

Covert

In your example, the subject is lot, a singular noun. "Of things" is a modifier, an adjective phrase.

Well, I'm curious, have any of you folks done anything like this, or am I going soft!

Over time the need to be right blends with the grace of effectiveness. Someone would be right to keep sending bottles back, but would that person be an effective host or guest, unless wine appreciation was the purpose of the dinner?

Personally it drives me crazy that so many people use singular verbs with plural subjects. Almost nobody says, "there are a lot of things to consider" anymore. They say, "there's a lot of things to consider." But I would be a pest to point out the problem 100 times a day.

Covert

In your example, the subject is lot, a singular noun. "Of things" is a modifier, an adjective phrase.

Yessir. One can easily say, "there is a lot to consider," without changing the meaning at all.

I call that the sound test. How does, "there are a lot to consider," sound?

The threshold level for TCA varies widely. I'm one of the unlucky ones that notice it at low levels and I find tainted bottles mostly undrinkable. My wife--she of the better palate--has a high threshold. If she doesn't notice then I'll pour one glass and leave the rest. What she doesn't drink we'll dump as the taint is usually worse the next day.

I'd generally send it back at a restaurant. Unfortunately that isn't always easy. At a recent wine dinner I was poured a glass out of the tail end of a bottle that was so corked I could smell it while the waiter was still pouring. My request for a new bottle set off a chain of whispered conversations, sniffs at the bottle and gestures in my direction from the waiter to the other pourer to the head waiter to the bartender to the owner. Finally the rep came over, sniffed the bottle and sent everyone scurrying to collect the glasses.

Which in essence the problem you faced: non-wine geeks don't get corked and if you press the point you can come off as pompous. So I would, as you did, check and see if anyone else is showing signs of distress and quietly wait for the next bottle.

I'd say "a lot of" can mean "much" or "many". The verb should follow the meaning. Unless it is a lot in an auction, in which case it is singular.

Dan

I'm getting to be too old to worry whether people think I am pompous or not, and even non-geeks appreciate how much better a wine without TCA is when they get to compare. So I am not personally worried on those scores.

However, there is certainly an issue if someone else at your table has already accepted the wine as unfaulty, as to declare the wine faulty would directly challenge their taste. In that situation I would certainly tread carefully. It would depend on how well I knew the person concerned.

Dan

I'm getting to be too old to worry whether people think I am pompous or not, and even non-geeks appreciate how much better a wine without TCA is when they get to compare. So I am not personally worried on those scores.

However, there is certainly an issue if someone else at your table has already accepted the wine as unfaulty, as to declare the wine faulty would directly challenge their taste. In that situation I would certainly tread carefully. It would depend on how well I knew the person concerned.

Well, my aim when I am out dining is to have a good meal with a good bottle of wine. If either of the two proves not what I am paying for, I tell the waiter.

Incidentally, the people at the table who usually look to me to select the wine always defer to me when I proclaim its suitability or lack thereof. They may not be smart, but they certainly open the door for me to do what I see fit

My ability to detect TCA taint seems to be a binary function. When I do notice, it is at a level that almost sickens me if I continue to consume it. If it's below that trigger limit I evidently don't notice at all. I always remove/return the wine in such cases. Usually the corked wine has been from my own cellar. If someone else was serving a wine from their personal collection that was corked I may just non-chalantly push my glass away and hope no one notices.

If someone else was serving a wine from their personal collection that was corked I may just non-chalantly push my glass away and hope no one notices.

I recently attended a birthday party for some friends who were visiting from out of town. The birthday boy joyfully opened a bottle 1998 Pegau CdP and was obviously disappointed when a few of us declared it corked. I assured him that all was not lost. I told him to put the cork in the remainder of the bottle and return it for a full refund/credit at the store where he forked over his $35-40. He seemed pleased/relieved that he could get his $$ back. He did return the bottle and got his money back.
Bill
PS: I may not return every corked quaffer, but when it is a gem like a 1998 Pegau, you can bet, I will bring it back and/or encourage others to do so.
PPS: I sold him the bottle when I was ITB

Almost nobody says, "there are a lot of things to consider" anymore. They say, "there's a lot of things to consider." But I would be a pest to point out the problem 100 times a day.

Covert

You must mix with the wrong sort of crowd.

Americans, mostly. They write pretty much okay, but listen to them and I would say 95% use singular verbs for plural subjects.

Covert wrote:

Personally it drives me crazy that so many people use singular verbs with plural subjects. Almost nobody says, "there are a lot of things to consider" anymore. They say, "there's a lot of things to consider." But I would be a pest to point out the problem 100 times a day.

Just curious Covert, where was the error that initiated this discussion? Tom V

[James Roscoe]

Covert wrote:

Personally it drives me crazy that so many people use singular verbs with plural subjects. Almost nobody says, "there are a lot of things to consider" anymore. They say, "there's a lot of things to consider." But I would be a pest to point out the problem 100 times a day.

Just curious Covert, where was the error that initiated this discussion? Tom V

I have the same question Tom.

While we're having a grammar discussion, does internet grammar fall within the parameters of written grammar or oral grammar? The rules can vary depending on the context.

Americans, mostly.

You must mix with the wrong sort of Americans.

I hear plenty of grammar mistakes on the street, but almost none among my actual associates.

Just curious Covert, where was the error that initiated this discussion? Tom V

Some guy named Tom asked if he was getting soft for not bringing up flaws (analogous to error) in wine. I demonstrated how by bringing up flaws people don't relate to the discussion. Thus it isn't soft not to bring them up. It's smart not to.

Covert

The problem I have with corked wine is that I don't always recognize it at first sip. This proves to be inconvenient in a restaurant after I have had ample tastes and then have to flag down the waiter. I had an uncomfortable situation arise in a prominent Southampton restaurant when the manager confronted me because I originally accepted the wine. Their policy is not to take back a bottle if the customer accepts it after taking a sip. A discussion ensued, he insisted it wasn't corked or flawed and he would know if there was a problem with it because he lived in Bordeaux for eight years, therefore, he was an expert. It ended with him removing the bottle from the table and said we would not be charged, but there was no offer of a replacement. It was not a pleasant evening. So, I understand the choice of some people not to return a corked wine if it is drinkable. Personally, I can't drink it.

Covert wrote:
Some guy named Tom asked if he was getting soft for not bringing up flaws (analogous to error) in wine. I demonstrated how by bringing up flaws people don't relate to the discussion. Thus it isn't soft not to bring them up. It's smart not to.


Oh, must be going soft indeed, or, was that a slightly tortured analogy? Perhaps slightly covert, as it were. Tom V

The problem I have with corked wine is that I don't always recognize it at first sip. This proves to be inconvenient in a restaurant after I have had ample tastes and then have to flag down the waiter. I had an uncomfortable situation arise in a prominent Southampton restaurant when the manager confronted me because I originally accepted the wine. Their policy is not to take back a bottle if the customer accepts it after taking a sip. A discussion ensued, he insisted it wasn't corked or flawed and he would know if there was a problem with it because he lived in Bordeaux for eight years, therefore, he was an expert. It ended with him removing the bottle from the table and said we would not be charged, but there was no offer of a replacement. It was not a pleasant evening. So, I understand the choice of some people not to return a corked wine if it is drinkable. Personally, I can't drink it.

Wow Diane, that's definitely a restaurant to steer clear of, mind if I ask which one it was?
I often have the same problem you described. I really think it's that I want to like the wine and don't enjoy the commotion and possible hassle ( as above!) involved in refusing it. Also, the person pouring the wine can pretty effectively imply that the procedure is something of a formality to be gotten past quickly.
I have to make a point of calming down in the future, paying attention to the wine only, and trying to decide right then and there if it is good or bad. I must say I almost always have an inkling. Tom V

Tom - the restaurant is Plaza Cafe. We've enjoyed it on several occasions in the past, but the way this situation was handled will keep me away in the future.

Tom - the restaurant is Plaza Cafe. We've enjoyed it on several occasions in the past, but the way this situation was handled will keep me away in the future.

Yep, thanks for the heads up Diane. Any restaurant that would loose a client for a bottle of wine isn't a place to go. Either they knew it was corked, or they should have had someone there who would be able to make that assessment.

Even if they felt you were wrong, they need to give you the benefit of the doubt until you prove you're too loony to want as a customer! Tom V

You actually drank corked wine...???


[*gasp*]



Oh, the horror.