Monday March 13: Victor de la Serna and Spanish Wines (Controversial!)

I won't be able to join as I have a 1 PM appointment unfortunately, but I will download and listen to it at the gym later this afternoon. I LOVE TalkShoe! It is very informative and equally entertaining - I especially love the music and sound affects - last week's black helicopters had me in hysterics!

[Robin Garr]

We're live and on the air, and would just LOVE to have a few more live participants in the studio audience. C'mon down! But if you can't, do download it later.

I really thought I'd make it today, but my morning appointments went too long!

[David M. Bueker]

It turned out really well!

[James Roscoe]

It was a good informative show, but I was hoping for a little more information on what makes Spain such a powderkeg topic for some people. I am especially thinking about Manuel Camblor(formerly the Latin Liqidator, now just Papa Camblor in case anyone hasn't heard the news). Also Mr. Perry can also speak very negatively about the present state of Spanish winemaking. What gives? I enjoy some producers, (Monticillo comes to mind) but not others. I continue to be in a state of confusion.

[Robin Garr]

I was hoping for a little more information on what makes Spain such a powderkeg topic for some people.

As Randy said, these TalkShoes will become more interesting if we can persuade more people to participate live. We know there's interest - the large and growing number of downloads demonstrate that - but even people who happily post away on the forum seem shy about talking live.

I've often wondered why Spain and Spanish wine generate so much heat, myself. On the surface, it appears parallel to the Italian situation: A major wine-producing country of exceptional diversity, currently embattled between "traditionalists" and "modernists," producing highly sought-after and expensive wines from a few top regions, and a lot of great bargains (and some plonk) from less hallowed quarters.

I think the situation in Spain might be a little more complicated by the fact that it's a surprisingly large country, with more geological and climate diversity than many European wine producers, and that its location tends to foster the kind of ripe, full and alcoholic wines that may appear "spoofy" even though it's nature rather than Parkerization in play.

Bottom line, though, I think much of the debate - at least in the small world of Internet wine geeks - stems from the same old argument, whether producers are crassly and nefariously changing the old ways and losing the old traditions in pursuit of valuable praise from the US critics, or whether they are not; and whether the old-fashioned styles should be defended or abandoned.

Just a thought - when multiple people are conversing on Talk Shoe, it can get confusing.
The talking over each other - if there was a way to control that, it would improve things a great deal.
I have been listening and enjoying the "shoes," though.

[David M. Bueker]

Ridge doesn't make a Montebello Zin. Was it the Cab? If so, the '94 is still shut down.

What gives? I enjoy some producers, (Monticillo comes to mind) but not others. I continue to be in a state of confusion.

What gives? I enjoy some French producers (Domaine Dujac comes to mind) but not others. I continue to be in a state of confusion.

Should I like Marojallia and Skalli and Delas exactly as much as I like Dujac to finally end this confusion?

Any sound advice will be much appreciated.

[David M. Bueker]

All wine regions are about exploration James. Spain is no more a powderkeg than France (Chateau Pavie anyone).

[James Roscoe]

What gives? I enjoy some producers, (Monticillo comes to mind) but not others. I continue to be in a state of confusion.

What gives? I enjoy some French producers (Domaine Dujac comes to mind) but not others. I continue to be in a state of confusion.

Should I like Marojallia and Skalli and Delas exactly as much as I like Dujac to finally end this confusion?

Any sound advice will be much appreciated.

Quite frankly, I have a much broader appreciation of French wines that I have tasted than I do of the Spanish wines that I have tasted. Since you brought up the comparison, the Frnch producers, particularly in the Rhone and in Alsace produce a lot of quality wine at a better qpr than I have found in Spain. It is just that simple. What gives? Do we not get the good producers? Am I not drinking enough Spanish wines because I love Rhones for red and Alsace for white? (A huge over-generalization.)

I wish the Spanish wine industry would do the kind of work the French wine industry is doing to get Americans interested in Spanish wines. I wish the Italians and the Germans were too. I have not been invited to the Spanish Embassy for a tasting of Spanish wines once. The French embassy has all kind of great events. The French wine society, backed by money from the French wine industry and ultimately the government is making inroads where the Spanish and Italians are losing a base in America. The Italians at least will still have Cavit to sell. What does Spain bring to the table?

What does Spain bring to the table?

[David M. Bueker]

James,

Perhaps Spain is losing base with you, but France is the one actually losing market share, and Spain is getting a good bit of it. Have you asked any of the local retailers about what are some good Spanish wines to try? If you love Rhone varieties then there's plenty of Grenache, Syrah and Mourvedre in Spain. Don't look for Alsatian style wines though, there's not a lot of Riesling or Gewurztraminer (if any!) in Spain.

And as I said on the shoe, Victor does defend the Spanish wine industry. Of course sometimes he does it with a 2x4 instead of trying to actually inform, but that's his right as well.

Victor...you would win more converts if you would ask people questions about their experiences and offer helpful suggestions, rather than just taking shots. I know much of what is said about Spain (some of it by me) frustrates you, but just poking back does not help the situation. I'm trying to moderate my tone, you might want to try the same.

[James Roscoe]

What does Spain bring to the table?

What is Spain doing to sell itself? I would say very little. You may be shocked, but I find little decent Spanish wine in the stores. There is plenty of crappy Spanish wine. I can find crappy wine from California or Chile or Australia if I want that style.

What is Spain doing? Is it going to be declared part of the New World? I am a moron when it comes to Spanish wines. David B. tends to be fairly persuasive in his arguements about where Spain is right now. It may be gaining market share, but it's not from me.

you would win more converts if you would ask people questions about their experiences and offer helpful suggestions, rather than just taking shots. I know much of what is said about Spain (some of it by me) frustrates you, but just poking back does not help the situation. I'm trying to moderate my tone, you might want to try the same.

I've been on this board since 1996 (with a hiatus, which is what makes me appear as a newbie), so quite a few people including Robin know me well, David. I like to offer sensible, reasonable data (or so I hope them to be) to other participants who write in a sensible, reasonable way. That is not James' case. He offers pot shots with very little knowledge behind them. (A self-declared Rhône lover who appears not to know that two of the Rhône's three great red varieties are actually Spanish, and at the very least, quite obviously, hasn't even tasted any wines made from these varieties on their home turf!)

Since I'm a newspaper columnist, it just comes naturally to use irony. And turning James' argument on the "confusion" caused by some (to him) likable and some unpleasant Spanish wines and applying it to France is no more than an exercise in irony, which serves to pinpoint the sheer absurdity of the "confusion" statement. That's the least one can expect in such a forum as this. Finding my replies offensive or over-the-top does seem like a show of thin skin...

[David M. Bueker]

you would win more converts if you would ask people questions about their experiences and offer helpful suggestions, rather than just taking shots. I know much of what is said about Spain (some of it by me) frustrates you, but just poking back does not help the situation. I'm trying to moderate my tone, you might want to try the same.

I've been on this board since 1996 (with a hiatus, which is what makes me appear as a newbie), so quite a few people including Robin know me well, David.

Finding my replies offensive or over-the-top does seem like a show of thin skin...

Well Victor I have been on the board since 1999, and it so happens you eviscerated me about two weeks into my time here, so let's say I know you as well. But that said...

I did not say your response was offensive or over the top, but I think you can do a better job winning converts if you offer suggestions rather than fire back with both ironic cannons blazing. James is not finding quality Spanish wines in his local shops (or at least he thinks he isn't). So James - where do you usually shop? Perhaps it's not an area well served by the best importers and distributors of Spanish wine. Perhaps you know of some contacts who could help him find a varied selection of the best Spain has to offer right now (at both inexpensive and higher price points).

As for knowing the ancient origins of the Rhone varieties - if one is required to have a thorough background in the Oxford Wine Companion to discuss Spanish wines with you then the audience is much lessened. While I admit it's not much of a stretch from Garnacha to Grenache, it's a bit more of a leap of faith from Monstrell to Mourvedre.

All I really saying Victor is that I understand your frustration (I have much of the same frustration with people around German wines/Riesling), but I think there's a better way of handling the discourse.

[James Roscoe]

Gentlemen, I have not been offended by anybody! Whoa, I apologize if I have offended anyone. I didn't mean it. I am nearly impossible to offend so don't worry about it. I do , however, know that Spain calls the grapes of the Rhone, Grenache and Mouvedre by slightly different names. (Do they have a different name for Syrah as well?) Heck, I even know that Tempernillo is called by different names around the country much like sangiovese takes on different faces in Italy.

As you rightly guess, I have been into wine for only three or four years. I have tasted a lot of Spanish wine, but none of it has wowed me. I am mostly complaining about the way they are marketed. Too many of the low priced ones are big fruit bombs that don't go well with food, and the high priced ones don't compare well with the Rhones and Bordeaux blends that I like. I will say that when it comes to whites I do drink a lot of Albarinos, especially with seafood. I forget they were Spanish and not Portuguese.

"Spanish wine" is about as meaningful an expression as "French wine". What's the common trait of a Côte-de-Brouilly by Château Thivin and a Château Pavie? Apart from the word 'château', nothing. So disqualifying "Spanish wines" is exactly as meaningful as disqualifying "French wines".

In the DC/Maryland area all the wines brought in by the top-quality US importers of Spanish wines (Jorge Ordóñez, Eric Solomon, Aurelio Cabestrero, Fran Kysela) are amply and generally available.

BTW -I've never waited for the Austrian Embassy to put on a tasting (which they haven't) in order to discover that I like grüner veltliner.

James:

I don't want to tead on Victor's turf, for he is the Man when it comes to the wines of Spain, but there are some incredible things happening there, and it would behoove you to continue investigating the wines.

As Victor points out, don't think of it as "Spanish Wines". Each area is developing autonomously; very similar to the French paradigm. We say "French Wines", but that really doesn't mean anything. You don't equate Alsace with Bordeaux, do you? Or the Rhone with the Loire?

Albarino is lovely. Now try Rueda. I expect you will be impressed. I certainly am. And the price is right too...a good Rueda should cost significantly less than an Albarino right now, since Albarino has become a playground for wine wannabes.

Try some rose wines. Many are astonishingly good (when fresh, remember) and nicely priced.

Rioja? Just remember, the entire area is in---you should pardon the expression---ferment right now, with some producers holding to the tradtional ways and some eagerly embracing experimentation and new directions. Hmmm. Sounds like Tuscany, doesn't it? Or Bordeaux?

Still, you can find pretty much a wide range Rioja, from sturdy, bright, everyday reds to big, whopping oak-soaked monsters.

And some of the 'lesser' (as in less well known or traditionally of lesser quality) have virtually exploded now. Hey, it's been a long while since anyone expected anything out of Navarra, but some good wines are now being produced there.

Since you like Albarino, take a (virtual) trip just up the road a bit to Bierzo. Try Mencia, a great red from that tiny place, that has become very popular very quickly. I love the stuff.

Sure, you can pay through the nose for Ribera del Duero and Priorat reds, but you can say the same for the classed growths of Bordeaux and Burgundy and the Rhone. But you can also find some moderate priced, and budget basement priced, little jewels too.

Hey, Spain is a great playground for wine geeks right now. It's a big country, with a lot of disparate and exciting developments. The staunch traditionalists (I want things to stay exactly and precisely the same as what I first discovered, and I don't want anything to change, ever, or I'll go away in a huff.) are in conflict with the innovatives (It's about time that Spain came into the new world wine-wise and tried something new and exciting.) But there are some who know and respect many of the traditions while still keeping their minds open to new ideas (how many have had Finca Sandoval?)

In that situation we all may lose something; but we all may gain something too.

I'm actually a little surprised that you, an acknowledged Rhonie, haven't found anything somewhat comparable in Spanish reds. But notice I said "somewhat comparable", which is different from "exactly the same as". I think there are some great Garnachas and Monastrells and Syrahs, and blends thereof, from Spain in the market right now. At great prices too. Sure, you might have to wade through some juice and oak bombs, but where's your sense of spirit, man????

[James Roscoe]

"Spanish wine" is about as meaningful an expression as "French wine". What's the common trait of a Côte-de-Brouilly by Château Thivin and a Château Pavie? Apart from the word 'château', nothing. So disqualifying "Spanish wines" is exactly as meaningful as disqualifying "French wines".

In the DC/Maryland area all the wines brought in by the top-quality US importers of Spanish wines (Jorge Ordóñez, Eric Solomon, Aurelio Cabestrero, Fran Kysela) are amply and generally available.

BTW -I've never waited for the Austrian Embassy to put on a tasting (which they haven't) in order to discover that I like grüner veltliner.

Victor, we will have to disagree about the meaningfulnees of the terms French wine and Spanish wine. In the end, they are probably just marketing tools, but the French use it much more succesfully than the Spanish have, at least in my mind.

Another problem with Spanish wines in general is that they regions are not tied to well-known historical areas. In France Burgundy was practically a separate nation for most of the middle ages. The Rhone area is tied to one of the great waterways of Europe and has the Pope's medieval residence attached to it. Bordeaux was an part of the Plantagenet lanholdings as was much of the Loire Valley. Spain has no such historical references. The areas are difficult to understand for most of us lazy Americans who only speak English but took some Western Civ. course in college. Spain only comes in with Columbus and then leaves with Phillip II. It's contribution to western history is minimized by the English speaking world. Blame Louis XIV for that or Napoleon. Take your pick. Neither the Duke of Marlborough nor the Duke of Wellington was able to overturn France's cultural dominance and the Spanish have sat with their hands under their butts ever since. A tasting at the embassy would certainly help. Why isn't there a Spanish Wine Tasting Society in this country like the French Wine Tasting Society?

This leads me to ask, if the term "Spanish wine" is meaningless. What substitute? Do I look at regions? I certainly don't like every Rhone wine I try. I don't even like every CdP I try. I don't even like every Pegau CdP I try. I have had good wines from Spain, but nothing that will lead me down that aisle on a regular basis. I go to Spanish wine tastings. I have tasted some of the importers you have mentioned. All have been low-end Spanish wines. Most tasted like they were made in California or Chile. None spoke to me of Spain (whatever that means).

In the end, I hope my search will not be in vain. I love the passion with which you speak of Spanish wines. I just have not found that passion in the bottles I have tried. I tend to find the faults described by David and others who criticize Spainish wines in general as in general being too oaky and overdone. I do appreciate all your advice though. Keep up the good work!

James, where do you buy from mostly? MacArthur's?

From their website for $50 or under I'd recommend the 1985 Torres Gran Coronas Mas La Plana, 2001 Roda II, 1998 Muga Prado Enea Gran Reserva.

The Torres is one of the best value Cabs of all time (and you know my feelings for most Cab). The Roda is a more plush modern-styled wine, but still nicely done. The Muga is one of the best, classic, Rioja.

I can't recommend any of the Priorats, since 90% of them have exceeded their value. I bought a bunch back in the 96-97-98 vintages when they were $40. Now you can buy a few bottles of Beaucastel and Marcoux for the same money as the 04s.

There's also Finca Sandoval for a good price from that website. I'm not sure if you'd like it. I was served my first bottle a month or so ago. Despite that the wine was served totally blind and I'd never tasted it before, I was still able to guess it as Finca Sandoval just from what I knew of the wine.

I hope these suggestions are helpful and will encourage you to try some different Spanish wines. If there's another retailer you buy from with an online inventory I'd be happy to make more recommendations.

Best,
Joe

Spain has no such historical references.

Houston, we have ignition.

Whooooeee, James. You may have a firestorm coming your way.

I think you've just fallen into the trap of betraying your Anglocentric, and in wine, Francophilic, education. And marketing.

Spain has distinct, discrete, and profound 'historical references'. You've simply been better informed (politicised? propagandized? acculurated?) by the English/French/Northern European culture than the Iberian culture.

[James Roscoe]

Hoke, I know exactly what I did. Isn't that the point?


Joe, I can never get to MacArthurs. It's on the other side of the planet from me. I mostly go to Corridor, a Total Wine Empire outpost in Laurel. The service there is good, but the one person in the store who knew anything about Spanish wines has gone and he tended to like the oaky overdone stuff anyway. I need to get to MacArthurs more often, but it's a trek and who wants to drive in DC traffic?

[David M. Bueker]

James,

I hate to say it, but if you're not willing to make an effort to go get the wines, what should the Spanish do? Bring the wines to your home?