French pronunciation - Languedoc = "Lahn-guh-doc" or "lahng-DAWK"

[Robin Garr]

Just got this E-mail, and responded as below. Since my French is pretty bad, I'd love to get input from those of you with greater fluency. Comments?

>> I enjoy reading your newsletters and especially appreciate the fact that you include the pronounciation. I generally have seen Languedoc prounced as "lahng-Dawk". Which is correct? And why the difference?
>> Keep up the great work.
>> Languedoc-"Lahn-guh-doc" or "lahng-DAWK"

My reply:

It should be noted that my French is pretty functional. I certainly can't claim fluency. So when I put those pronunciations in articles, I shoot for a good approximation that won't be too difficult for English speakers and that (I hope) can at least get the word out comprehensibly.

Your question really has two parts:

1. Should "Languedoc" be pronounced with two syllables or three? Looking at the spelling, I'm pretty much convinced that the light "guh" in the middle is audible.

2. How is the last syllable pronounced? I'm confident that it's not a truly long O ("doak"), and I'm pretty sure it's not a very short O ("dahk"). Somewhere in-between, "doc" ("What's up, doc?") and "dawk" pretty much straddle the French word. As a Kentuckian, the "aw" combination makes me think of "dawg," so I erred in the other direction.

Hi Robin!

I am no native speaker but my take on this:

- two syllables, the "ue" is not really heard. If you would say "la langue", you would not hear the "ue". The ue just makes the g pronounced as guttural.
- the "doc" is pretty short. i would say it is almost as short as in "Hello, Doc", but obvíously I am no English native speaker either .


Hope that helps!

Regards, Robert

I'm not a native French speaker, but I've generally followed the pronounciations given in Diana Bellucci's How to Pronounce French, German, and Italian Wine Names (Bonus Austrian Spanish & Portuguese Wine Names Included). When speaking people whose native language is French, Bellucci's pronounciations seem to match.

She gives: "la(n)-guh-dok," and the "(n)" indicates a nasal "n." Also, my understanding (again from Bellucci) is that after the seventh century, French lacks syllable accents. So, the indication of an accent on DAWK can't be correct.

I'd love to hear from someone who is fluent in French, and find out if this is indeed correct.

Robin, I think there are two pronunciations, one in Modern French and one in Occitan. If I remember well, the French is two syllables, the Occitan is three syllables. See this entry in Wikipedia, for example.

I remember practicing this difference during a trip to the Midi a few years ago, and the differences were very clear when I could hear the word pronounced in France, one version in the Midi, a second in Paris.

The OED has an explanation of the background of the languages:

langue d'oc, the language spoken in mediæval France in areas roughly south of the Loire, where the use of oc [f. L. hoc] for yes was characteristic of many phonetic variations; opp. langue d'oïl, d'oui, the language spoken in areas north of the Loire, where oïl [f. L. hoc ille] (mod.Fr. oui) was used for yes, and which has developed into standard modern French.

Anyone done a 16 Candles joke yet?

From French it would seem the "ue" in the middle is there, but barely as sort of an afterthought.

Langue sounds right to me. It`s not easy eh, trying to write out pronounciation. Doc is spot on!

Robin, I think there are two pronunciations, one in Modern French and one in Occitan. If I remember well, the French is two syllables, the Occitan is three syllables. See this entry in Wikipedia, for example.

And although Occitan is rarely spoken these days, it still inflects the pronunciation of French down South. Trailing e is often heard as a somewhat gutteral "uh" at the end of a word. Thus, I'd say that in the Languedoc itself you're likely to hear "lawn-guh-dok" with the accent on the first syllable, whereas in Paris one would probably hear more "long-dock" with the accent on the second syllable. Again, however, I am certainly far from fluent in French so will bow to the knowledge of a bona fide Francophone.

Mark Lipton

I confess that I don't even know whether in ordinary French parlance the final 'c' is pronounced ... the reason for my confusion is that in Mondovino, I swear I heard Michel Rolland pronounce it "lahn-guh-DOH" when he made fun of the locals as hicks - i.e. "Languedoc languedocien", I believe the phrase was.

Mistral started a revival of the language, Mark, and there is a small but vigorous movement -- they claim two million speakers using six dialects. I remember collecting a newspaper in the language during our trip.

See http://occitanet.free.fr/en/index.html

It appears the discussions can get quite intense: "Occitan is no "distorted French". French institutions, among which most of the school teaachers have spread the idea that Occitan is only a "patois", a distorted form of French. This is of course definitely wrong. Occitan and French are just two different languages which formed themselves independently out of Latin. Moreover, the differences above show that Occitan remained closer to Latin than French did. If the relationship was relevant, one should then consider French as distorted, over evoluted Occitan."

Regards, Bob

Anyone done a 16 Candles joke yet?

The Donger need food

5 comments:
1/ Everyone I know pronounces the "doc" bit as in "Vin de pays d'Oc". That is, as in "doctor".
2/ However hard I try I cannot get rid of a syllable between a "g" and a "d" sound. So the "uh" has to stand.
3/ I wouldn't fret too much about it. People (over here at least) anglicise words that come from the French in many different ways. Who is to say what is right? The important thing is to be able to communicate with those around you.
4/ I bet the original questioner mispronounces "pronunciation", as he spells it "pronounciation" .

[James Roscoe]

5 comments:
1/ Everyone I know pronounces the "doc" bit as in "Vin de pays d'Oc". That is, as in "doctor".
2/ However hard I try I cannot get rid of a syllable between a "g" and a "d" sound. So the "uh" has to stand.
3/ I wouldn't fret too much about it. People (over here at least) anglicise words that come from the French in many different ways. Who is to say what is right? The important thing is to be able to communicate with those around you.
4/ I bet the original questioner mispronounces "pronunciation", as he spells it "pronounciation" .

Of course that's why it's French and not Latin. Another secret is the French (or is it Franks?) gave up their native German for Latin. Of course they were going to mispronounce everything! It was the natural state of things at the time. Heck, even the native Romans couldn't pronounce Latin correctly anymore and we got Italian.

Anyone done a 16 Candles joke yet?

The Donger need food

Where is my automobile?

Mistral started a revival of the language, Mark, and there is a small but vigorous movement -- they claim two million speakers using six dialects. I remember collecting a newspaper in the language during our trip.

Yes, but it strikes me about the same as those in the British Isles who keep alive the Celtic languages supplanted by English: it's a valiant rearguard effort with liittle real traction. I wonder how many everyday transactions are conducted in Occitan, even in the heart of the Languedoc?

Occitan and French are just two different languages which formed themselves independently out of Latin. Moreover, the differences above show that Occitan remained closer to Latin than French did. If the relationship was relevant, one should then consider French as distorted, over evoluted Occitan."

No doubt about it. What often gets lost is that, in addition to the "Langue D'Oc" and the "Langue D'Oil" (not Langue D'Oui as many present-day amateur linguists would have it) there was also the "Langue De Si," taking in what is now Provence and extending into the Piemonte and Liguria.

Somewhat off the topic was a revelation only recently given to me: the reason that Italian and Spanish have so many more cognates than either of them has with French is that Gaul split from the Roman Empire far earlier than did either present-day Spain or Italy and consequently took on quite a number of Germanic words from the Franks.

Mark Lipton

Regards, Bob[/quote]

I don't disagree with anything you write, Mark.

But, even for a guy with a tin ear, folks in the Midi said "Languedoc" very differently than folks in Paris did.

Do you have a view on Empires of the Word: A Language History of the World, by Nicholas Ostler? I've read some good reviews and it's in my Cart on Amazon, but it looks like one of those books I could get lost in for a few years, and I'm agonizing about pulling the trigger.

Something like wine, really.

I always hear "Languedoc" pronounced in three syllables but the middle one is lighter than "-guh-" with no really discernably open "u" sound.

I always hear "Languedoc" pronounced in three syllables but the middle one is lighter than "-guh-" with no really discernably open "u" sound.

Quite. That's what I hear too.

[Robin Garr]

I always hear "Languedoc" pronounced in three syllables but the middle one is lighter than "-guh-" with no really discernably open "u" sound.

Quite. That's what I hear too.

Given that you and Tim are both British, Steve, I wonder if we're actually saying the same thing but in different trans-Atlantic ways. To me, "uh" represents the <i>schwa</i>, a neutral, short, unaccented vowel sound. Which I take to be what you guys are getting at also.

>> Languedoc-"Lahn-guh-doc" or "lahng-DAWK"

Hi Robin,

I'm a native French speaker. Being from the Northern part of France, I say "lahng-doc". If I was from the South of France, I would say "lahn-guh-doc".
Our Southerners do pronounce all the syllables in a word - which we Northerners don't. The last syllable is "doc", with the "c" pronounced. Michel Rolland would say "lahn-guh-doc".

I hope this helps.
Best, Eve

But, even for a guy with a tin ear, folks in the Midi said "Languedoc" very differently than folks in Paris did.

Folks in the Midi say virtually everything differently than those cityfolk in Paris do, and take great pride in it. True Occitan, OTOH, would leave me scratching my head even more than simple French does, though. FWIW, the strongest "Southern" accent I've ever heard in French was that of Paul Feraud, proprietor of Dom. du Pégaü in CdP. Maybe if I listened to Pagnol's characters a bit more, I'd revise that statement, though.

Do you have a view on Empires of the Word: A Language History of the World, by Nicholas Ostler? I've read some good reviews and it's in my Cart on Amazon, but it looks like one of those books I could get lost in for a few years, and I'm agonizing about pulling the trigger.

Nope, never heard about it until now, but I think it just made it onto my B'day wish list . It's possible that Otto might know more about it, it being a bit more in line with his profession than mine. Thanks for pointing it out, though, Bob.

Something like wine, really.

Isn't everything?

Mark Lipton

I always hear "Languedoc" pronounced in three syllables but the middle one is lighter than "-guh-" with no really discernably open "u" sound.

Quite. That's what I hear too.

Given that you and Tim are both British, Steve, I wonder if we're actually saying the same thing but in different trans-Atlantic ways. To me, "uh" represents the <i>schwa</i>, a neutral, short, unaccented vowel sound. Which I take to be what you guys are getting at also.

It is precisely what I at least am getting at. And that is what I always assumed you meant by "uh". The middle syllable is usually (when I hear it in England) pronounced as a neutral short sound.

I just googled on "how to pronounce Languedoc", and got a web page on wine pronunciation posted by K&L wine Merchants. this is what I found


Languedoc (Lahn-geh-dawk) - Southern French region, long lightly regarded as the source of simple table wines, more recently gaining recognition for wines of interest and value.

[Robin Garr]

I just googled on "how to pronounce Languedoc", and got a web page on wine pronunciation posted by K&L wine Merchants. this is what I found

Languedoc (Lahn-geh-dawk) - Southern French region, long lightly regarded as the source of simple table wines, more recently gaining recognition for wines of interest and value.

Bob, that brings us full circle! That's actually the WineLoversPage.com WineLovers' Lexicon, reproduced (with permission) by K&L. In other words, I wrote that.

[James Roscoe]

I love watching circular discussions and arguments!