Advice on selecting wines to start a small cellar - newbie

Hi there:

I've enjoyed wine for a few years now but have not really explored. I've decided to start a small cellar so that I can grow my tastes. Most of what I've had so far is whatever is easily accessible. Cabernet Sauvignon is what I've primarily been enjoying - Wolf Blass, Santa Carolina and some local wineries - Peele Island for example. I've tried the odd Bordeaux etc. and enjoyed it.

The previous owners of the house we are in left behind a nice cellar setup. Insulated room in the basement with cylindrical clay containers to hold wine bottles. There is a thermometer in there which reads pretty much a constant 12 or 13 degrees celcius - so what I pretty much need now is the wine!.

The wine stores in Ontario are now selling 2005 Bordeaux futures. I've heard that 2005 is looking like a great vintage so I thought I'd start with one of : Clos Du Marquis or Bahans Haut-Brion. The minimum order is three bottles at $237 and $267 respectively. Any thoughts on one vs. the other.

I'd also like to have wine on hand that is about ready to drink and wine that I can cellar for a few years. I'd prefer not to be getting anything that absolutely needs to be drunk right now and will be fine in my cellar for a couple of years while it strikes my fancy to try it. I'd perfer to stick to wine that is not terribly expensive - < $25 while I experiment

Other than the Bordeaux my thoughts were to get a few Cab. Sauvignon's from Chile and/or California. Zinfandel from California, Shiraz from Australia, Chianti, a Port and perhaps a vintage port to store away, Merlot, Pinot Noir, Cabernet Franc

I'm trying to stick to what I've heard is popular from each part of the world but it certianly does not have to be that way. Please recommend whatever you think will strike my fancy.

I'm guessing, in addition to the 3 Bordeaux which I will get about a year from now, maybe 20 to 30 or so wines to have on hand?

I am really only into red wine as you can tell. I'd also like to try for starters to go with wines that have reviews so that I can read while I taste.

A few choices that are available locally:

Ravenswood Zinfandel,
Marques De Casa Concha Cabernet Sauvignon,
Miguel Torres 'Santa Digna' Cab. Sauvignon
Penfolds 'Thomas Hyland' Shiraz
Penfolds Bin 128 Shiraz
Masi Grandarella
Zenato Valpolicella Superiore Ripassa
Antinori Peppoli Chianti Classico
Tayor, Fladgate 10 year old Tawny Port
Taylor, Fladgate 20 year old Twnny Port
Robert Mondavi Cabernet Sauvignon,
Bonterra Cabernet Sauvignon
Liberty School Cabernet Sauvignon
Rosenblum Zinfandel
Sterling Cabernet Sauvignon
Sterling Merlot
Perez Cruz Cabernet Sauvignon
Cathedral Cellar Cabernet Sauvignon
Chateau Pey La Tour
Louis Jadot Beaujolais-Villages
Moueix Merlot
Perrin Reserve
Ascheri Barbera D'Alba Fontanelle
Caltelmonte Cent'are Nero D'Avola
Julian Chivite Gran Feudo Reserva
Torres Gran Coronas Cabernet Sauvignon Reserva
Mission Hill Cabernet Sauvignon Reserve

Are any of these particularly worth including / not including. Any and all other recommendations will be appreciated. In Ontario wine is sold by a provicially owned monopoly and I have not found much in the way of good advice from the staff there so I need your help!.

Would also appreciate your opinion on whether you think I should pass on the 2005 Bordeaux futures and use the $ instead to purchase other wines that I can put into my cellar right away.

Much appreciate it if you've read this far!.

-Aamer

Don't care for the Bontera very much, myself. SOME Roisenblums can be quite nice (I don't like real jammy fruit bombs) Otherwise, looks like an intriguing cellar plan.

Welcome to the forum, Aamer! You have an enviable setup with that cellar and there are quite a few wines in your list that would be well worth drinking. And in my opinion, your best bet is to start doing just that. Buy a bottle of one of them, try it, and get two or four or twelve more (depending on how much wine you go through) if you like it. Then try a new one. In this manner, your cellar will reflect your palate and you'll have no shortage of wines you like. And you'll learn a bit about how wine ages as you drink through the bottles over the course of several years.

My Bordeaux experience is very limited, so I won't be any help with the future. There are plenty of other people on the board who can offer informed opinions on that, and I'm sure some of them will do so.

However you go about this, though, we'd all be interested in your thoughts on the wines you drink. Hope to hear more about them as you stock your cellar. (BTW, the only ones I'd take off the list would be the Jadot and the Mouiex, but that's just me.)


Mike

Cellar sounds perfect. Not sure how big capacity is, but if you get the winebuying bug, then it's easy to fill it up very quickly.

Have you tasted many older wines? Before going full-bore into buying loads of cellaring stock, see if you can get a few older bottles to see which styles you like. I still think it's ok to put a good few bottles down even if you've not tasted them, but try and make it 3's rather than 6's or dozens in order to limit risk.

Some critics are very good in offering drinking windows for wine, i.e. two dates between which the wine might be expected to peak (to their palate at least). These are useful as they allow you to cellar a bottle or two of a wine with no prior knowledge of longevity. Critics such as Robert Parker (preference for big wines), Broadbent (preference for classic, old world wines), Jeremy Oliver (Australian wines - slight preference for elegant wines), James Halliday (Australian wines), Michael Cooper (NZ wines).

Of the wines you mentioned, some don't need cellaring, but would hold well for a few years -the Tawny Ports especially are ready to go and will not acquire extra complexity. Consider instead Vintage Port (1994, 1997, 2000 and I suspect 2003 vintages would be good candidates). As a cheaper alternative, try single Quinta Port (often from different vintages to those listed above) or late bottled vintages.

Of the other wines you listed,
Penfolds Bin 128 will cellar for ~ 10+ years in a decent vintage, though should have reached a decent level of complexity by 6 years.

Penfolds Thomas Hyland has not impressed me and didn't taste like a cellaring wine - unless you tried and liked it, I'd steer you away from it towards other Oz shiraz - maybe the Gold Label Wolf Blass if you've enjoyed their other wines - should come in short of $30 a bottle.

The Castelmonte sounds interesting and Nero D'Avola seems to age quite well. I'm becoming a fan of the wines of Puglia and they seem to offer something for short-medium term cellaring (in my book 3-8 years from release).

Torres Gran Coronas Riesrva should handle short-medium term cellaring well.

Beaujolais can develop in the cellar, but I wouldn't expect great things from the Jadot. However it's cheap enough to buy 2-3 bottles and see for yourself how it develops (say drink one a few weeks after purchase, another 2 years later and the last one 4 years later). Take notes at each tasting and compare - look for changes in fruit (is it vibrant, savoury, .. ?); acidity (is it tangy, refreshing, soft,..?). Note differences in colour of the wine, paying attention to depth of colour & colour at the rim (this latter can be a good indicator of age).

I'd also recommend some split-level buying - by that I mean for every dozen wines, try to choose a couple (or more) that are quite long-term (and probably more expensive) wines. If you buy 100 bottles in the first year, all for drinking in 2008-2010, you all of a sudden have a peak to manage. Better to get a spread of drinking windows.

Most of all though, have fun!

regards

Ian

Welcome Aamer
Don't rule out some of the reds from Ontario. Pinot Noir, Gamay and Cab Franc in good years can be very nice, especially from the better producers like Chateau Des Charmes, Flat Rock and Stratus. Plus, if you visit the wineries you can try before you buy.

You haven't given the capacity of the cellar. One person's "small" in not another's. We have a very small cellar; capacity about 10 cases. What we do is divide it into two sections. The largest we call "rotatation" and it contains our selections of wines that are approachable on release. This includes well over 90% of all wines. These wines will all be consumed over the next year or two.

The other section we call "wines laid down." This normally holds three or four cases of wine that we are aging from two to twenty years. We keep track of these with a simple file on the WP indicating which wines will be consumed in which year.

This is a very easy way to get started in organizing, stocking, and keeping track. You have looked at some very nice wines to get started with.

Carl

Thank you for all the replies so far. They have been very informative.

My cellar capacity is about 220 bottles.

Wrt. the Bordeaux futures I am also considering looking into futures that are on the less expensive side from the two I listed. A few I have come across are:

Belgrave, Rollan de By and Pipeau. All seem to have decent critiques. The last is 91-93 by Robert Parker and only $93 for a 3 bottle lot. What's your opinion - is > 2x the price worth it for a second wine of a big name estate like Haut Brion vs. an equally rated first from a lesser known estate?

[Jenise]

Aamer, I'm by no means this board's best authority on Bordeaux, but it's my favorite wine area in the world and so I have some opinions. Also, I'm cellaring about 700 bottles of the stuff so I've given some thought to the situation you are now in.

One thing you always have to juggle with Bordeaux is the timetables on which these wines will be ready. Is Haut Brion a better wine than Pipeau? Ultimately, yes. But the 2005 Pipeau will be BETTER to drink in 2015-2020 than the Haut Brion which will not show its best until 2030 and beyond. They have different life spans, and lesser classed and unclassed growths will shine far earlier and probably be more appealing to a newbie palate. I had an 81 Haut Brion on Friday that I thought was too young yet based on what a 79 showed about a year ago. Had I not known the 79, I'd be wondering what all the fuss was about.

So are the 2005's worth it? Well, how long do you want to wait to drink your wines? And how old are you? My husband's quite a bit older than me and I am taking his age into consideration when I say that we're not investing heavily in 05's. We'd rather buy 95's and '96's and 01's which will drink well sooner, and which sell for less than half the prices of the 05's which have undergone HUGE markup from previous vintages. Unless money's no object to you and the prestige of buying The Greatest Vintages is to your liking, your money's better spent on the 04's, 02's and 01's which are good vintages.

But $30C a bottle for Pipeau and Rollan de By are good prices. I just paid $20US for some 01 Rollans at auction, where the prices I found at two sources on the internet for the same wine were $35 and $67. Do I reccomend the wine? Well, I have a bottle or two of the 00 in my cellar that I've never tasted yet. Something made me buy that, though I don't remember what at this point. And I can tell you that the 01 went up in price because the Wine Spectator named it among the Top 100 of 2006. Same story with the Pipeau--I have some, but never tasted it (I am a patient woman!). I do know that Decanter magazine has raved about Pipeau in the past, and so has the gentleman whose tasting notes you read here, Covert Harris, who drinks Bordeaux fairly exclusively.

Re winery second wines. I'm too inexperienced with them to tell you otherwise, but the common wisdom among Bordeaux fanatics is that the best wine of a not-big name estate is usually a better wine than a big name's second wine. Clos Marquis is one of the exceptions, because it's not the reject barrels of the First Growth, but a separate/adjacent estate entirely that Leoville Las Cases also owns. It is, therefore, but by ownership, a best wine of a not-big name estate. And it's a wonderful wine I and any other Bordeaux fanatic I know would recommend. I've not had the Bahans so must stay silent on that one.

Anyway, if you've been enjoying Bordeaux wines and want some for your cellar, you'd probably do well to follow Ian's suggestion and buy a few of each futures to set aside for later. If you keep tasting and drinking good wine, you'll grow into these and eventually be thrilled with yourself for having them. You need a variety of Bordeaux to insure a variety of good drinking windows.

Re other wines, many of them you list are not cellar worthy. That is, they are best drunk in 2-3 years of release. With just 220 spaces in your cellar (seems like a lot now, but eventually you'll stumble into a wine that will seduce and amaze you so much you'll do anything to have more, and then the game is on), you don't want to commit precious cellar space to wines like the Jadot, Moueix or Liberty School. Buy the wines to drink, but put them in a cool spot and call that the Drinking Queue. Wines I'm familiar with that are on your list that would (without vintages, it's hard to be specific) not only reward but need cellar time (say, 3 to 8 years), would be: the Mission Hill, Torres GC (I love this wine), Chivite, the Sterlings, Mondavi and the Zenato. Some Rosenblums would be on this list, too, but without knowing which one you're considering, it's hard to say.

Anyway, I hope this helps. But what everyone else said is right, taste every wine you can to learn what you like best. Buy a little of what you like now, and know that your palate will probably evolve and the simpler wines you enjoy now (like tyhe Santa Carolina) will eventually be left in the dust.

And above all, have fun.

Jenise,

Can't thank you enough for the time you have taken to respond.

I've decided to go with Pipeau futures for now instead of the Clos Du Marquis or the Bahans. I think that my current budget is better spent on others that will be drinkable earlier. I can always add whatever wines I end up enjoying most to my cellar in the future for long term cellaring. I'm 31 at this point so I probably will enjoying collecting some that take a good 20 to 25 years but it would be nice to have a first taste of that Pipeau in another 8 years or so.

The website I am looking at for our wine dealer does not always list the vintages so I'm going to have to refer to the handy Hugh Johnson pocket wine book that I purchased today to give me an idea of what vintages were like in a particular area of the world. The Torres GC is 2002 which sounds was not a great vintage from Spain (thoughts?).

-Aamer[/i]

Some pitfalls for the new wine cellar owner, from someone who's been there and made the mistakes:

Don't overcollect. The goal is to have your wine cellar yield just as much perfectly aged wine as you wish to consume. The temptation for a beginner (and I fell prey to this) is to load up on a bunch of wine that won't be mature for 10 years, and then you have a cellar full of wine that you don't want to drink. Then on the other side you find your cellar full of wine that's mature and in danger of going over the hill unless it's drunk up soon.

Don't cellar too many or too few of any one wine. You want to buy more than one of any particular wine that you intend to cellar for a long period. I always buy at least 3 bottles. That way, when you think it's coming mature, you can try one to see how it's coming along, and if it wasn't quite mature yet, you've got two left. If you only had two or one, you'd be taking a real gamble. I like to buy in sixes, because then when you're sure the wine has reached its plaeau of maturity, you have several bottles to enjoy at their peak. A full case may or may not be too much, depending on your consumption pattern.

Keep in mind wines designed for early enjoyment. 99% of all wine isn't suitable for long-term aging, and most of that is intentional. I've found that a lot of reds that are released as ready to drink benefit from a year or two (but no more) in the cellar. There's a great mystique (sometimes warranted) surrounding old wine. But the first job of any wine is to give pleasure, and most are made to do so sooner rather than later.

So avoid the temptation to buy everything in sight that's destined for long aging, and instead be selective in what you buy for the long term. Ramp up slowly, so that your cellar ends up providing you with a continuous flow of perfectly aged wines. You said you have a 200 bottle or so cellar. You ought to plan to populate it with wines for long-term aging over a 5-10 year period. That says you should put in two cases of wine for the long term (10 years of age) each year. Make up the rest with shorter term aging prospects.

I hope this is helpful.

-Paul W.

Jenise,

Can't thank you enough for the time you have taken to respond.

I've decided to go with Pipeau futures for now instead of the Clos Du Marquis or the Bahans. I think that my current budget is better spent on others that will be drinkable earlier. I can always add whatever wines I end up enjoying most to my cellar in the future for long term cellaring. I'm 31 at this point so I probably will enjoying collecting some that take a good 20 to 25 years but it would be nice to have a first taste of that Pipeau in another 8 years or so.

The website I am looking at for our wine dealer does not always list the vintages so I'm going to have to refer to the handy Hugh Johnson pocket wine book that I purchased today to give me an idea of what vintages were like in a particular area of the world. The Torres GC is 2002 which sounds was not a great vintage from Spain (thoughts?).

-Aamer[/i]

Aamer
2002 in Spain certainly isn't a great vintage. If the producer has done well, they often make a lighter wine, that might only age for half it's normal span, but provides good drinking from quite an early age. If they've done badly then they will have failed to get ripeness - leading to overly herbaceous taste and stalkiness ; or in the reverse situation of a drought vintage, the grapes were overripe and stressed - leading to tastes of prunes and currants, a bit stale with lack of refereshing acidity. Winemakers have some tricks up their sleeves to ameliorate these effects but the old proverb about making a silk purse out of a sows ear is often quoted in the wine industry.

It might be interesting to just grab one bottle, but also grab a 2004 when they come out (much better vintage). A side by side tasting might be fun and provide some insight into the effect of different vintages.

regards

Ian

the prices on the two futures you mention are TERRIBLE! go across the border to century liquors in rochester and get good futures there - less than half the price i should imagine - maybe one quarter! i agree with the advice not to buy too much until your tastes declare themselves; but on the other hand, some things just have to be done. there are some decent prices in the 2005 bordeaux and probably shouldn't be missed. but don't overlook the 2001,2 and 4 either - more classic vintages and better buys. i believe you will ultimatly be disappointed with less expensive merlot based wines from bordeaux - so, pick lesser wines very carefully. good luck - but remember you will only make mistakes for the first 30 years or so.

Aamer,

Lots of good advice in the previous posts on this topic, so I'll try to stick to things that haven't been covered already:

- Unless you already know that you don't like it, give some thought to Burgundies. They tend to mature a bit faster than the Bordeaux or California Cabernets. Although the very best Burgundies will improve seemingly forever, a typical mid-level Burgundy will be ready in 7-10 years, vs 10-15 being more typical for Bordeaux. This can help you to achieve the spread of drinking times recommeded elsewhere on this thread.

Burgundy has a couple of other advantages particular to smaller cellars. First, it's will help flesh out your choices for for food matching. Both California Cabernet and young Bordeaux are pretty big and can overwhelm a lot of foods. Because it's much lighter, Burgundy will help round out your options for dinner. Second, even a small cellar can be a HUGE advantage for drinking Burgundy. The quality in Burgundy can vary quite a bit from year to year, with the result that often a $20 bottle from an excellent year will be a better wine than a $40 bottle from a mediocre year. A cellar allows you to stock up in great years and ride out the mediocre ones. Fortunately for you, 2002 was a great year for Burgundy and 2005 looks to be another good one.

- For reference on what wines are ready to drink, I recommend Hugh Johnson's Pocket Guide, which is inexpensive, small enough to keep handy in a kitchen drawer, and updated yearly.

- Specifics on some of the wines you asked about:

Ravenswood Zinfandel. Once a great Zinfandel producer, Ravenswood has sadly fallen off quite a bit in recent years and can no longer be considered a top source for quality or value. If you really feel strongly about trying a Ravenswood, look for one of the single-appelation labels (e.g., Lodi) and avoid the mass-market "Vintner's Blend" (which has reportedly been refered to inside Ravenswood as "Chateau Cash Flow"). In the $10-15 range, you're much better off with the Rosenblum blend; if you'd like to try some higher-end Zinfandels, any of the single-appelation labels from Ridge are excellent choices (my personal favorite is the Lytton Springs, but they're all very good).


Zenato Valpolicella Superiore Ripassa. A terrific wine with good depth and backbone. FYI: there's a huge difference between the Ripassa and the regular Valpolicella Superiore. Both are excellent, but the Ripassa is made using the skins of the Amarone grapes, resulting in a wine of much deeper color and fuller body. Would make an interesting compare / contrast for a dinner with friends.

Robert Mondavi Cabernet Sauvignon, Bonterra Cabernet Sauvignon,
Liberty School Cabernet Sauvignon, Sterling Cabernet Sauvignon, Sterling Merlot. These are, frankly, all quite similar wines. Before spending too much time and money on multiples of these, I'd suggest trying a lot of different things first to get a better understanding of what you really like. For instance, I'd recommend trying some of these:

- Cotes du Rhone: made from a blend of Grenache, Syrah and Mouvedre. The 2004 Kermit Lynch is terrific if your local retailers carry it, E. Guigal is also a solid choice and quite widely available.

- Rioja: made from Tempranillo, the noble grape of Spain. The Marques de Caceres Crianza is widely available and a solid example, though there are literally hundreds of choices in Rioja and neighboring Ribera del Duero if you find you like it. I personally love tempranillo-based wines and Spanish wines can be a source of terrific value.

Louis Jadot Beaujolais-Villages. As noted elsewhere in this thread, not a wine intended for aging. If you'd like to try Beaujolais, it's well worth the extra $3 to step up to the so-called Beaujolais "Cru" regions, including Fleurie, Julenais, and Chiroubles. Again, these aren't really intended for cellaring. If you really want to cellar a Beaujolais, look for one from the Moulin-a-Vent region.

Hope this helps, and have fun!

Can't thank you folks enough for the advise. Armed with you suggestions and Hugh Johnson's pocket guide, I finally made a trip to the wine store to stock my cellar with a few wines. Here is what I picked up.

- Ordered 3 bottle lot of 2005 Pipeau - will be ready to pick up in 2008.
- 2 2002 Torres Gran Coronas Cabernet Sauv.
- 1 2004 Marques De Casa Concha Cabernet Sauvignon.
- 1 2004 Caltelmonte Cent'are Nero D'Avola
- 1 2002 Penfolds Bin 28 Kalima Shiraz (I planned on picking up two bottles of Bin 128 but they were sold out. Hugh Johnson thought this one was very good so I thought I would try it out before buying more).
- 2 2003 Ripassa Valpolicella Superiore

I expect based on your comments and some research that these are ready now for the most part but I can safely cellar the Ripassa Volpolicella from this vintage for another 4-6 years, Cab. Sauv's for another 2 to 3 years - nothing that NEEDs to go on my drinking list pronto (The Penfolds will because I have never tried a Shiraz).

I'd really like to add some Riojas to the mix on your suggestion William but the choices aren't too many locally. I found a Marques de Caceres Crianza 1998 - which I will probably try but I'd like to find younger vintages that I can cellar and plan on drinking over the next few years. If you have any other suggestions on Riojas I'd be happy to hear them. Any rule of thumb on how long after bottling I can expect to cellar Riojas?

I'd also like to add a few Douro's from Portugal.

The problem I seem to run into with Riojas and Douros is that I can never find wines from the vintages that people recommend. I have a number of 2004 Douro suggestions that I have picked up from many places but mosty I see 2003's and the odd 2001 and 2002. I'm told that 2004 was good and I'd prefer the younger wines so that I can cellar them. Again - any rule of thumb on on how long after bottling I can cellar Douros?.

Good stuff. Where's the invite

[Jenise]

Aamer, nice list. Btw, just FYI, I tasted a 97 Torres Corona Gran Reserve a year ago that was drinking splendidly but had plenty of years left of it. A 99 I opened two months ago wasn't quite ready yet--I left it on the counter for three days to open it up to a good drinking stage. And I just purchased some 78's at auction--performance you can expect from a good year.

[James Roscoe]

Since Otto is in Zanzibar and out of communication, let me add that you need to put some Musar in that cellar. I will let Otto tell you which ones to look for. I haven't had a bad one yet however. Musar, for the record, is a winery in Lebabon. They blend classic Bordeaux grapes with local Lebanese grapes that are probably the forerunners of all the other grape varieties in the world. I believe Robin featured one in his newsletter on Friday. That would be an excellent place to start.

- 1 2002 Penfolds Bin 28 Kalima Shiraz (I planned on picking up two bottles of Bin 128 but they were sold out. Hugh Johnson thought this one was very good so I thought I would try it out before buying more).

Aamer
If you do a search for this wine (Bin 28 ), or 'palate callibration' you should see some recent notes from 2 or 3 people. The 2002 seemed much much better than the 03 and should be great for the cellar. It should cellar 10 years with ease (if you can wait that long) based on it's track record from previous decent vintages. That's not to say it won't drink well now, so why not have a taste as you'd planned and compare against what Otto and the others thought of it.
Hope you enjoy them all
regards
Ian

[Jenise]

James, I just picked up two Musars on Friday, the 97. It's still in some supply lines even though the 98's out. Don't know if a 99's out yet or not. Do know, though, that Otto highly reccomends the 97 and 95 vintage. And that the people at the store I bought these at had no idea what Musar was. They asked, which gave me a chance to launch a real tear-jerky (and heartfelt) diatribe about the poor people of war torn Lebanon. Had everybody in line with me ready to buy a bottle--until they found out the price.

Jenise
The 99 has been out here for about half a year, so hopefully will be available there soon. It's rated highly in all but one note I've seen, but I've yet to taste it myself (I bought two anyway, as I like it pretty much in any year!). Toying with the idea of getting a magnum of the 99 to keep the 95 magnum company
regards
Ian

[James Roscoe]

James, I just picked up two Musars on Friday, the 97. It's still in some supply lines even though the 98's out. Don't know if a 99's out yet or not. Do know, though, that Otto highly reccomends the 97 and 95 vintage. And that the people at the store I bought these at had no idea what Musar was. They asked, which gave me a chance to launch a real tear-jerky (and heartfelt) diatribe about the poor people of war torn Lebanon. Had everybody in line with me ready to buy a bottle--until they found out the price.

But the price of an age-worthy Musar is nothing compared to an age-worthy Bordeaux and yet all those people would have no problem paying that price. The Musar is better than a lot of Bordeauxs which is where I would fit it in if I was classifying it. I guess it really does have its own profile. But value-wise it compares well with the Bordeaux.

[Jenise]

But the price of an age-worthy Musar is nothing compared to an age-worthy Bordeaux and yet all those people would have no problem paying that price.

Oh yes they would. These people seemed shocked that anyone would pay $40 for ANY wine. And I understand that, spendy grape juice isn't for eveyrone.

[James Roscoe]

Oh, my mistake, I thought you were talking about wine people. My mother is of the same opinion, so I am familiar with the type. I'm afraid I insult every time I go home and won't drink her two week old Yellow Tail. I'm afraid my Dad's Warsteiner is much more appealing.

Aamer
If you do a search for this wine (Bin 28 ), or 'palate callibration' you should see some recent notes from 2 or 3 people. The 2002 seemed much much better than the 03 and should be great for the cellar. It should cellar 10 years with ease (if you can wait that long) based on it's track record from previous decent vintages.

Ian et. al. - this is going to be a silly question so bear with me. When someone says 'cellar N years' - should I always assume this is N nears + vintage i.e. in this case drink by 2012?