What is the allure of Bordeaux?

This is a question I have been pondering lately. When I was first learning about wine, I was interested in trying Bordeaux, for obvious reasons, as it is a huge player in France and key in the history of wine. The more I got into wine, and the more wines I tried from around the world, I was left thinking, why would anyone still drink Bordeaux? Unless you are getting into it for the prestige factor/collectability of the first growths, for example, I couldn't seem to justify it. To my palate, there are a multitude of wines out there that provide great pleasure at a price much lower than the best Bordeaux can offer. Even basic Bordeaux can't compete value wise with many of the lesser known regional French wines or the plethora of options Italy has to offer. Bordeaux just seems very Wine 101 (and is very annoying when it is the only thing the general public will order, when confronted with an all-French wine list, because they are familiar with nothing else).

Based on the semi-recent trends of the market to drive prices sky high, and many great chateaux being purchased by multinational conglomerates, I see why sommeliers are quick to snub it for wine lists. You are hard pressed to find hordes of small growers in Bordeaux that you would in other areas of France. I should say, I have had the opportunity to taste several first growths, and older Bordeaux, such as 1982 Pétrus, from customers who have brought them into the restaurants I worked at. Notable, but I can't say I was wowed beyond belief, especially for the value of those wines. If I had hundreds of dollars to spend on a bottle, I'm going for Burgundy or Barolo (something I can't often afford as is). All this to say that I don't dislike Bordeaux; in fact, I find them pleasant to drink. But for the price, and all that the world has to offer - why go Bordeaux?

Is this just palate (and wallet) preference, or am I missing something?

You are hard pressed to find hordes of small growers in Bordeaux that you would in other areas of France. I should say, I have had the opportunity to taste several first growths, and older Bordeaux, such as 1982 Pétrus, from customers who have brought them into the restaurants I worked at. Notable, but I can't say I was wowed beyond belief, especially for the value of those wines. If I had hundreds of dollars to spend on a bottle, I'm going for Burgundy or Barolo (something I can't often afford as is). All this to say that I don't dislike Bordeaux; in fact, I find them pleasant to drink. But for the price, and all that the world has to offer - why go Bordeaux?

From what I know you are correct about the lack of small new growers in Bordeaux, which reflects the economy of the region.

But once you are spending a couple of hundred dollars per bottle I suspect the difference with Barolo and Burgundy is mainly your preference/greater familiarity with the latter two regions, which therefore gives you more pleasure. I can enjoy good Bordeaux but also prefer Barolo and Burgundy. Not necessarily because I think they're better. But I know them better so I get more out of them.

Joy, I sure understand what you're saying. And a few years ago I would have totally agreed with you. But not now.

Bordeaux sorta let their success play them false, with the rarefied great growths and original cult wines becoming so stratospherically priced as to barely if not totally unattainable to the common wine drinker. And with those prices, and the fawining that went on about them, they, I think, ceased to actually represent Bordeaux and occupied a niche all too themselves.

At the same time this elevation was going on, many of the smaller growers were just making wine and paying the bills, and the result was an awful lot of mediocre swill.

I think that has shifted again though (even if we're not really seeing much of it here in the U.S. at this point), and now Bordeaux is producing some pretty damned impressive Bordeaux AOC wines, along with the Cotes and the Entre-Deux-Mers.

When I started in the biz many years ago Entre-Deux-Mers was mostly crap, run of the mill swill, with little clairty or definition. Now I can't tell you how many satisfying, well-made wines I've had from that area. They are not like the old Bordeaux---tired, and dusty and absolutely lacking in definition, but instead juicy, and lively, and nervy...maybe a little too much new oak/vanilla, but that was inevitable. Better viticulture, better winemaking, more pride----just better wine all the way around, and a joy to drink.

Yeah, I wrote off most of those prime growths long ago. Had to; couldn't afford them except on the rarest of occasions. But there's a new spirit in Bordeaux, and it's priced within my range, and there's still a lot of attraction in a good CS-Merlot-CF blend. So now I'm back to drinking Bordeaux again. Not as much as I used to, no. And they don't go with my food choices, since I don't eat much meat anymore. Nonetheless, enjoyable.

What is the allure of Bordeaux?

One one hand the premier chateaux that are now only for the extremely rich.

But when you say

you are hard pressed to find hordes of small growers in Bordeaux that you would in other areas of France. I can only say either you are not looking hard enough or they are not available in your market,
(and praise be, because demand from the US and then Asia priced the classed growths I regularly drank when younger into special treat category.

But in the end, if Bordeaux doesn't meet your needs and others do, what's the problem?

Bordeaux only gained its reputation (as did Champagne and Burgundy) because of the markets, accessibility and politics of the time.

I started with Bordeaux, moved south to the Rhone, gained an exciting mistress with the new world but I still return to Bordeaux. Cru Bourgeois rather than classed growths, but I reckon the Bourgeoisnow are the equal that the second were back then.

Times change, there are new parameters of transport and accessibility.

Drink what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law...

That is a very interesting post, Hoke. I have not yet made that "discovery". One of the problems is simply the sheer volume of château names. I have memorised some 200+ of the better known and have drunk a good few of them but that does not include the sorts of estate from outlying sub-regions which you are talking about. In other regions, I buy mostly by the producer's personal name which I find more eloquent than a château.

I buy very little Bordeaux nowadays but that is because I am lucky to be sitting on around 300 bottles of assorted crus bougeois to super seconds from the 90s and early 00s with a few older bottles. Personally I get enormous satisfaction nearly every time I open one of these bottles, which by now have developed secondary complexity, have smoothed out the rough edges of their tannins and have absorbed their oak. Bordeaux is rarely so hedonistic as Burgundy from rich years but has at its best a subtle restrained elegance combined with structure which I love. As to cost, according to Wine Searcher, the Bordeaux I am sitting on have a unit value from about €20 to €120, which is less than that of my Burgundy collection, where prices have shot up recently. Crus bourgeois like Poujeaux and Sociando-Mallet in the €20-30 range easily hold their own with wines from other regions in the same price bracket. It is a matter of taste which one prefers.

Bordeaux wines, like those from the Loire and South-West, are food friendly with classical European fare but do not cope so well as, say, Mediterranean wines with exotic influences which are increasingly common in restaurants even in France.

Bordeaux wines, like those from the Loire and South-West, are food friendly with classical European fare but do not cope so well as, say, Mediterranean wines with exotic influences which are increasingly common in restaurants even in France.

This is also a good point that speaks to the convergence of wine and food trends.

[David M. Bueker]

Joy,

Pricing and winemaking trends have largely turned me away from the Bordeaux Iused to buy. I was never a 1st growth customer, except when a deal was to be had.

While I have not had Hoke's breadth of experience with the lesser appellations, I can say that there are good values and good wine to be had in the Medoc. Take a look around, and see if you can find a bottle of Chateau Hourtin Ducasse. I get it locally for $20 or less (I seem to recall you asking about that price point recently somewhere), and it is a very delicious, food friendly wine. I always keep some on hand in 750 ml for me, and in magnum for dinner parties.

Bordeaux is largest single part of my cellar (26.8%), but average age is 1995.8 and I think most is way too young to drink.

I haven't bought much new release in last 10 years. I find classified Bordeaux starts to get interesting at about 20 years and I'm unwilling to pay current release prices for that much delayed gratification. Classified Bdx formerly did not require one to be a 1%er to lay down a case.

There are some petit chateaux that I can enjoy young. Grolet and Peybonhomme (related properties that are I believe biodynamic) can be tasty for $15.

[Robin Garr]

I blame Parker.

There! Someone had to say it.

Thanks, everyone, for the replies! Cost for me is certainly a factor, as someone in the restaurant industry on a budget. Most of the wines I consume on a regular basis are less than $30, although I'm not opposed to go higher for special wines or those I want to hold on to for awhile.

But when you say

you are hard pressed to find hordes of small growers in Bordeaux that you would in other areas of France. I can only say either you are not looking hard enough or they are not available in your market,
(and praise be, because demand from the US and then Asia priced the classed growths I regularly drank when younger into special treat category.

It's not that they aren't out there, and I have tried some from importers like Kermit-Lynch, Rosenthal, etc. I am just finding much more variety in that price point from other regions. I work at a restaurant with a 98% French wine list (the rest from Spain/Basque country), so we have quite a nice selection from great importers like Dressner, Charles Neal, Martines, and the ones I listed before.

Bordeaux wines, like those from the Loire and South-West, are food friendly with classical European fare but do not cope so well as, say, Mediterranean wines with exotic influences which are increasingly common in restaurants even in France.

Very much in agreement with you there. It's tough for me to think Bordeaux and I only have $20ish to spend and that could get me a basic Baudry Chinon or Texier CdR, or a blend from Landuedoc/SW/Provence.

Take a look around, and see if you can find a bottle of Chateau Hourtin Ducasse.

Will keep that on my radar, for sure. Thanks, David!

There are some petit chateaux that I can enjoy young. Grolet and Peybonhomme (related properties that are I believe biodynamic) can be tasty for $15.

I appreciate everyone's suggestions for specific wines to try. Maybe these will help sway me. I did pick up a couple the other day at Trader Joe's based on a recent thread's suggestion - 2011 Château Olivier Le Dauphin d'Olivier and 2010 La Demoiselle de Sociando-Mallet.

Joy Lindholm said,

" I work at a restaurant with a 98% French wine list (the rest from Spain/Basque country), so we have quite a nice selection from great importers like Dressner, Charles Neal, Martines, and the ones I listed before."

That sounds great. I have some former business associates in Nebraska that would absolutely love a restaurant with a wine selection like that one. Which restaurant do you work at? I would like to give them the name so they can find this gem.

Are you the Sommelier at the restaurant?

I agree overall with Hoke that there is still good affordable Bordeaux out there and that there is new blood appearing!

I am less certain about this, though:

When I started in the biz many years ago Entre-Deux-Mers was mostly crap, run of the mill swill, with little clairty or definition. Now I can't tell you how many satisfying, well-made wines I've had from that area. They are not like the old Bordeaux---tired, and dusty and absolutely lacking in definition, but instead juicy, and lively, and nervy...maybe a little too much new oak/vanilla, but that was inevitable. Better viticulture, better winemaking, more pride----just better wine all the way around, and a joy to drink.

To me, the (limited, because of disappointments) recent samples from the "lesser right bank" have almost all been over-ripe fruit bombs. If I am going to drink a 14.5% abv cherry vanilla cola wine, I will at least support the local economy and buy a Napa or Sonoma wine!

To me, the (limited, because of disappointments) recent samples from the "lesser right bank" have almost all been over-ripe fruit bombs. If I am going to drink a 14.5% abv cherry vanilla cola wine, I will at least support the local economy and buy a Napa or Sonoma wine!

Maybe your samples weren't representative of the region?

To me, the (limited, because of disappointments) recent samples from the "lesser right bank" have almost all been over-ripe fruit bombs. If I am going to drink a 14.5% abv cherry vanilla cola wine, I will at least support the local economy and buy a Napa or Sonoma wine!

Brian, are you thinking of something like this?

2011 Reignac Grand Vin de Reignac - France, Bordeaux, Bordeaux Supérieur (12/23/2014)
This is a well made wine crafted for gracious drinking when young. Colour was a dark carmine and the nose showed red rose with a polished patina. Palate was medium bodied and well balanced with good depth of brambly fruit, smooth acidity, a polished and slightly sweet wood patina and enough grip on the finish. Why don't I fell more entuisiasm? In spite of extravagant claims on the back label about "great terroir", I think that the charms of this wine shout "man made" at present and could come from anywhere in the world, but maybe with more time the claims for terroir specificity will become more plausible. Good, though, but not special QPR at €16.

PS 12/27/2014 - Unsurprisingly the remaining half much diminished but still drinkable with loss of bloom, aroma and fat and more prominent tannins.

I appreciate everyone's suggestions for specific wines to try. Maybe these will help sway me. I did pick up a couple the other day at Trader Joe's based on a recent thread's suggestion - 2011 Château Olivier Le Dauphin d'Olivier and 2010 La Demoiselle de Sociando-Mallet.

Joy, it wouldn't surprise me if you dislike La Demoiselle. I've tried very few second wines myself. I know that they are supposed to be more approachable in their youth than the Grand Vin, but I suspect that la Demoiselle is a chip off the old block. I would never think of opening Sociando-Mallet itself at less than 10 years old even in a "little" vintage which '10 certainly isn't.

I am staggered that the Bordeaux offer here in most, even prestigious, restaurants consists of some leading growths but in vintages no older than 2005, if that. For my palate most such wines would not be a very pleasant experience to drink now, especially at inflated restaurant prices. However, I have to assume that not all the restaurant customers who buy these wines are stupid and some must therefore like them like that.

[Jenise]

Joy, the first Bordeaux I ever had was a Haut Bailly that ended up in a supermarket mark-down bin at somewhere south of $10. At that time I was living in California and pretty sold on my home state's product-- I'd had very few French wines and had particularly liked none. That Haut Bailly was a game-changer. I'd never smelled or tasted anything so complex and magical. And here I am all these years later still smitten and owning a cellar whose largest single holding is Bordeaux. Now maybe if that bargain bottle had been Barolo or Burgundy or Beaucastel or Baudry I'd have gone in a different direction--I was probably ripe for the plucking, ready to go in a new direction. But Bordeaux it was and the nose of a well-aged Bordeaux is still that which intoxicates before a drop ever touches my lips. Hard to explain why, it just IS.

Chateau Roc du Levraut

http://www.examiner.com/article/planet-bordeaux-chateau-roc-de-levraut-rouge-bordeaux-superieur-2010

Chateau Roquefort
http://www.examiner.com/article/planet-bordeaux-chateau-roquefort-rouge-bordeaux-superieur-2010

Clos Manou. Admittedly more California-plush in style, but still good Bordeaux.
http://www.examiner.com/article/for-your-holiday-delectation-clos-manou-m-doc-rouge-2009

Chateau Magneau Graves Blanc
http://www.examiner.com/article/bordeaux-bargains-abounding-chateau-magneau-graves-blanc-2011

Chateau Vaillon des Brumes. Surprisingly complex.
http://www.examiner.com/article/planet-bordeaux-vinum-natura-de-chateau-vallon-des-brumes-2009

Chateau Roustaing Vielles Vignes
http://www.examiner.com/article/steal-this-wine-chateau-roustaing-r-serve-vielle-vignes-bordeaux-2009

An old standby that's still around. Humble price; decent drinking.
http://www.examiner.com/article/wine-from-a-small-planet-chai-de-bordes-bordeaux-rouge-2009

A pleasant little tipple.
http://www.examiner.com/article/the-delights-of-bordeaux-blanc-chateau-de-sours

Great bargain.
http://www.examiner.com/article/a-bordeaux-bargain-chateau-bel-air-l-esperance-2008-under-10

This is one Brian probably wouldn't like. Still, a well made wine though.
http://www.examiner.com/article/planet-bordeaux-chateau-d-argadens-bordeaux-superieur-2007

And let us not forget the Bordeaux sweeties, like Monbazillac and Cadillac, all the way up to Sauternes.
http://www.examiner.com/article/sweet-bordeaux-reaches-out-to-the-wine-world

Joy Lindholm said,

" I work at a restaurant with a 98% French wine list (the rest from Spain/Basque country), so we have quite a nice selection from great importers like Dressner, Charles Neal, Martines, and the ones I listed before."

That sounds great. I have some former business associates in Nebraska that would absolutely love a restaurant with a wine selection like that one. Which restaurant do you work at? I would like to give them the name so they can find this gem.

Are you the Sommelier at the restaurant?

Absolutely - it is called Le Bouillon. We'd love to have them come in - please have them introduce themselves to me if they do come. I'm the bar manager there.

Thanks, Hoke, for the suggestions. I'll have to check some of these out! We were gifted three bottles of Sauternes for our wedding - one to open each on our 1st, 10th and 25th anniversaries. I can't wait!

Jenise, there is something magical about those wines that hook you that you can't explain. I've had moments like that with Riesling and Barolo. I look forward to the wealth of knowledge you have to share about Bordeaux.

Tim, how long do you suggest I wait before opening La Demoiselle? It should be more approachable younger than its big sibling, correct?

Tim, how long do you suggest I wait before opening La Demoiselle? It should be more approachable younger than its big sibling, correct?

Joy, in theory La Demoiselle should be more approachable, but I am cautious about opening left-bank claret from a big vintage as young as its 5th year. If I had several bottles, it would be a no brainer to open one now to see how it is performing but otherwise I would be inclined to wait a couple more years or so. I see that a local supermarket has Gruaud Larose's 2nd wine, Sarget, in its 2008 version; I am tempted to try one soon to see if it is more forward than I would expect to find the "grand vin".

Tim, how long do you suggest I wait before opening La Demoiselle? It should be more approachable younger than its big sibling, correct?

Joy, in theory La Demoiselle should be more approachable, but I am cautious about opening left-bank claret from a big vintage as young as its 5th year. If I had several bottles, it would be a no brainer to open one now to see how it is performing but otherwise I would be inclined to wait a couple more years or so. I see that a local supermarket has Gruaud Larose's 2nd wine, Sarget, in its 2008 version; I am tempted to try one soon to see if it is more forward than I would expect to find the "grand vin".

My local TJ's has a few of these so maybe I'll open it soon, and if I like it maybe buy a couple more for a few years' aging. Thanks for your input!

Joy Lindholm said,

" I work at a restaurant with a 98% French wine list (the rest from Spain/Basque country), so we have quite a nice selection from great importers like Dressner, Charles Neal, Martines, and the ones I listed before."

That sounds great. I have some former business associates in Nebraska that would absolutely love a restaurant with a wine selection like that one. Which restaurant do you work at? I would like to give them the name so they can find this gem.

Are you the Sommelier at the restaurant?

Absolutely - it is called Le Bouillon. We'd love to have them come in - please have them introduce themselves to me if they do come. I'm the bar manager there.

Thanks Joy! If that is close to M's Pub, I really like that neighborhood.

I took a peek at the Le Bouillon menu and wine list. Very nice and affordable. I will pass the name along to the people I know and encourage them to visit.