General forum question - how do you treat Israel wine ?

Guys,
I thought i'd take the big skinny dip in the icy river and float my long standing feud with local (miami) wine shops, I have been fighting (good naturally) with total wine and others on the grounds that they lump, unfairly in my opinion, kosher with Israel... I point out that kosher wines on their shelves hail from Spain, California, France and other regions and span all wine types, cab, syrah, Bordeaux etc. Whereas Israel is purely a region.. and as a region its not getting the full shelf space it should because half the shelf space is allotted to kosher wines..

What do you non kosher wine drinkers say ? I always figure that a ton of non jewish / non religious jews buy and drink Israel wines just as I will drink Spanish wines (which are kosher of course) and most people I see buying Israel wines do not seem to be religious or jewish..

I think its a serious flaw on the stores, im biased because yes I want more shelf space devoted to Israel, but I feel it does wine drinkers an injustice by mixing the lines and ignoring a vital and growing region....

As a buy of wine/s, I think that the lack of promotion is a big problem. Where I help out, I constantly see wine agents promoting wines from all areas. They bring in their samples with usual flyers, winery brochures, name tags etc. If Israel wants to promote their wines they need to step up with the promotions and go from there.
I should add there is not a big demand for kosher wines in the area where I live.

I have to confess that I have never drunk an Israeli wine. As far as I can remember I have only seen some on sale here at Rob, the Brussels gastronomic temple, which practices high prices. I need to consult Rogov's recommendations and see whether they include Rob's offerings.

I bought the only Israeli wine I recall having ever seen in a shop. A Pinot from I think Golan Heights (2007 Golan Heights Winery Pinot Noir Gamla). I noted that it was a decent QPR but nothing to get excited about. I would purchase another wine from Israel if I ever saw one in a store but none of the shops I visit have them or maybe as you suggest they are with the kosher wine since I never check those.

In the general market, most regions have their promotional organizations, either quasi-government organizations or private. In the California industry, we have the Wine Institute, Family Winemakers of California, as well as regional associations. We can get matching funds from the US government for promotional activities outside of the USA under certain conditions, especially involving trade shows. The Sonoma County Wineries Association always had multiple tastings in cities around the country and Canada. Family Winemakers of California has major tastings in 3 venues within California. The Wine Institute has a great web site and promotional materials, and provides assistance with promotional activities within and without the USA. Where is the promotional activity in the general market of an Israeli association, boosting Israeli wines? They have gotten some decent scores in some publications, but it is tastings and other visibility that will promote market acceptance in the general market, and the fact is that Israeli wines are all but invisible except to the kosher and Jewish worlds. There are enough Israeli wineries that they could do what the Sonoma County Wineries Associatio n does, and put on trade and consumer tastings in multiple venues throughout the USA.

If I was selling wines I think I'd stock Kosher wines in the Israeli section unless I had enough of both to have a kosher section and an Israeli section and even then I'd put them next to each other as the Israeli section would be denuded if the kosher wines were removed.

Thinking being that - yes other countries make kosher wines - but those who seek out kosher wines would no doubt look first in an Israeli section and wouldn't necessarily trawl thrrough the rest of the worlds wines looking for the odd kosher wine.

We drink Baron Herzoz from California, but have never seen an Israeli wine in a store.

[Jenise]

Israeli wines are rare in my area, too. After Rogov came to this forum, I ordered a few bottles direct from distributors so I could put on an all-Israel wine dinner for friends just to expand everyone's experience but there weren't many to choose from. On the rare occasions I do see them on the shelves, it will be one or two bottles at best, and they're typically lumped into an area called "specialty wines" or something like that at a store where the other offerings are domestic wines by grape variety, then Italy, France and Spain. German, Austrian, Australian and South African wines get lumped into a space of their own too. Greek wines (there's a strong Greek community here) end up huddled on one shelf in an end-camp where the other shelves are Organic and Local wines.

Point is, the stores tend to separate wine a lot like how I stock my cellar: according to retrieval demand. My cellar is divided by both region when I own a lot of it, region in some cases and variety, which is inconsistent with anything but how I think when I'm choosing wines for our meals. The average wine buyer in my area probably sources in much the same way. There isn't a strong Jewish community where I live but there are a lot of Greeks. Stores stock Greek wines for them, and the Greek wines are on a shelf by themselves the way Organic wines are: because the person who buys them is looking for that item only. Putting them all together instead of spreading them around the store is meant to do the buyer a favor.

Hi,
I am very surprised as I had figured Israel wines were more main stream,

http://www.winemag.com/Wine-Enthusiast- ... aeli-Wine/
http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/43545

And others I have seen throughout the mainstream, but I thought they were more well known.

My history; as a teenager in search for meaning in life and religion, being jewish I found myself in Israel, more specifically in Samaria in what was the ancient kingdom of Israel now referred to as the west bank..

Politics do play a part, and I understand some oppose to Israeli settlement in what is known as the west bank, honestly though I do not see politics, I see an ancient revival of past millenarian and thats what drew me there as the prophet foretold "once more will grapes be planted in samaria"

Religion and politics aside, I lived in Israel's "napa valley" for 7 years, while not involved in wine making it was there all the time, wine, grapes winery's, i made one, tasted wines from the barrels etc..

Some interesting articles point out the Israeli grape question, http://artisanfamilyofwines.com/blog/?p=1765 & http://esra-magazine.com/blog/post/israeli-wine-crisis

Being that the islamic conquest destroyed all the vineyards, the native grapes are mostly gone, lets see where Israel wine types go...

It might be that my lack of exposure to overall wines because many kosher wines come from Israel, I think the Israel wines will continue to grow.. Some of my friends with winery's are from france where they made wine, others studied in california...

/rant off would love to hear your TN's of the Israeli wines youve tasted..

Being that the islamic conquest destroyed all the vineyards, the native grapes are mostly gone, lets see where Israel wine types go...

Personally I would be much more interested in Israeli wines if they had local grape varieties to use. That said, nearby Lebanon, at least Musar, is able to make highly distinctive wine from European varieties, so maybe there are lurking around there some equally distinctive Israeli crus.

Being that the islamic conquest destroyed all the vineyards, the native grapes are mostly gone, lets see where Israel wine types go...

Personally I would be much more interested in Israeli wines if they had local grape varieties to use. That said, nearby Lebanon, at least Musar, is able to make highly distinctive wine from European varieties, so maybe there are lurking around there some equally distinctive Israeli crus.

I imagine they will bring the grape variety's back, theres a big interest in this

http://www.prohibitionhangover.com/israelwine.html

Interestingly, some claim that it was the returning crusaders that brought back to europe grape variety's like muscat and shiraz.

[Jenise]

Hi,
I am very surprised as I had figured Israel wines were more main stream ..

I'm sure on the east coast that is more the case. Here on the left coast where most of America's domestic wine production originates, there's not a lot of demand for wine that is similar in style to what's already available but that has to come from far away--unless you're in the market for strictly kosher.

Here are my notes on the tasting I mentioned hosting:

http://www.wineloverspage.com/forum/village/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20453&start=0

Elchonon
Yes I think you are correct that Israeli wine just can't seem to establish itself in the wider market beyond Kosher wines.

Over in the UK there is an issue of anti-Israeli sentiment amongst some sections of the population, but then the same could be said against France, Germany, USA, Argentina, etc. (I'm surprised the Daily Mail readers ever want passports, such is the hatred of the rest of the world promoted by it's writers!)

I wonder whether the importers are swayed by wanting to appeal to the widest part of their obvious target market. i.e. there will be more jewish people than Israeli ex-pats, and therefore Kosher wines have a wider target market. The mistake (and I think it is a mistake) is that they miss the mass market by focussing on a small specialist market segment. Maybe it's easy to sell moderate volumes to a specialised market, than to put the hard yards in to widen that appeal.

A great champion can change that and drive wider appreciation, though saying that Rogov was one such person, yet probably still achieved little in widening that appeal. Sometimes a well-funded and enthusiastic trade marketing body can work wonders - Hazel (Murphy?) in the UK, along with the unconnected wine shops 'Oddbins', between them transformed Australian wines from a tiny share of the market, to market leaders. It can be done, but it requires a special combination of the right wines, the right people, the right network and the right time.

Much as I hate to say it, there is also no Sassicaia, Grange, Vega Sicilia, etc. a 'best of breed' wine, that develops a buzz that ripples down. I hate to say it, as the pursuit of being the big name wine has resulted in some pretty soulless cult wines the world over. What I'm more pleased to note, is the amount of experimentation that is going on to find the right grapes to grow. I'm reassured that it's not just more Cab Sav, Merlot, Chardonnay, etc. and that some low key grapes are showing promise. Just look at Argentina with Malbec and Chile with Carmenere for how sometimes an unheralded grape can find it's spiritual home.

If there would be one lesson taught by the Australian Wine Bureau, it's that the way to get the wines a wider appeal, is by getting on the road and taking those wines to as many cities as possible and to get people tasting them. Especially in the UK, but also Belgium, Holland and other non-producing countries, there is a great open-mindedness about trying different wines. Existing prejudices are less ingrained. What might be especially successful, is to do so in conjunction with the Lebanese wine industry. It would make news (and good news ), it would get people talking, but also get them tasting. It would benefit both industries, as barring Ch. Musar, few Lebanese wines are known beyond the wine geek community, though probably even they have wider recognition than Israeli wine.

... and it was a very good question

regards
Ian

I have seen these discussions before about low demand for Israeli wine on the one hand, and lack of marketing by those involved in promotion of Israeli wine on the other. Is there a low demand because there is a deficiency of marketing (seminars, tastings, etc.) or is there no active bringing Israeli wines to the consciousness of wine lovers because of a lack of demand? I think that it is like any other product in that those who profit from the sale of Israeli wines must not wait for the demand, but must do all they can to tout the beauties of these wines. Unfortunately there is a fractionation of those bodies who should be marketing Israeli wines. About one year ago the Israel Wine Producers Association (IWPA) was formed, and although this sounds like they are getting their act together, it is clear that this is an effort by Royal Wines, a producer and importer of kosher wines to tout their 15 Israeli wineries. This is, to me, a joke, as it represents only about 5% of all of Israel's wineries. We over here in Israel just cannot get our act together. It's like expecting Apple to get together with Samsung to promote Smartphones! And don't expect the government to do it either. It sure would be nice to see what Craig Winchell refers to, "trade and consumer tastings in multiple venues throughout the USA". Just having attended the 5th Annual Wine Bloggers' Conference in Portland, Oregon last month, I saw what could be done in a presentation of tasting of Argentinean wines by a group representing a large number of their wineries. I dream of something like this being done to bring Israeli wines to the minds and palates of American wine lovers and bloggers.

Bob Parsons Alberta is right, Elcohonon, this will happen in the stores when the promotion efforts are made. The wines are there. The quality is high. The price is right. The word has to be spread. In the meantime, we small voices will try to do what we can.

I encourage all interested in Israeli wines to read something that was brought to light on the Israeli and Kosher Wine Forum of this WineLovers Discussion Group by Steven B -- Here is the link he provided:
ttp://www.israeli-wine.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/38762-I-Wine-Review-2.pdf

And, of course, you are invited to read what I have written about Israeli wines on my web blog, http://www.israelwinetaster.com

Dan Kovnat

Hi,
I am very surprised as I had figured Israel wines were more main stream ..

I'm sure on the east coast that is more the case. Here on the left coast where most of America's domestic wine production originates, there's not a lot of demand for wine that is similar in style to what's already available but that has to come from far away--unless you're in the market for strictly kosher.

Here are my notes on the tasting I mentioned hosting:

http://www.wineloverspage.com/forum/village/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20453&start=0

Great points, theres 2 clashing themes, 1 is that the importers are on the east coast, ella valley for example retails here about 22 because importer is here, in new york I think its 30.. and B we pay more for the california wines than you do

The entire comments of your TN's both by Rogov of blessed memory and David N pretty much sum up all that is wrong, the very strong political sentiments find their way in and unjustifiably in my opinion!! Leave politics out, one of my favorite wines is Gush Etzion, the winery and vineyards are located in areas that were jewish settled in the 20's and 30's...

As Rogov denoted I fall under "those who would argue that the land was given by God. " but ive also looked at the recent century and millennium history for why I graiate to the regions.. I just bought a cool historical visitors card to Hebron from 1920 were they discuss its famous grapes.

And so, you mention a few wines from the golan region, there are many other regions in Israel including judean hills (not the west bank for those of you on the opposite political sphere) Such as Ella Valley, Yatir, Castel, Flam, Bravado and many more, A lot of wines herald from the coastal region near haifa... and yes many many wines come from Judea and Sanmaria.. Shiloh, Psagot, Tura, Tanya, Gvaot, Ventura, Gush Etzion, Har Bracha and many more..

Some winnery's just hae excelled at some types and done less well on others, I dont know many estate bottled wines besides har bracha, ella valley... and many of the winery's use the same sources for grapes..

I gotta get my rear end to work then reply to Ian

Elchonon
Yes I think you are correct that Israeli wine just can't seem to establish itself in the wider market beyond Kosher wines.

Over in the UK there is an issue of anti-Israeli sentiment amongst some sections of the population, but then the same could be said against France, Germany, USA, Argentina, etc. (I'm surprised the Daily Mail readers ever want passports, such is the hatred of the rest of the world promoted by it's writers!)

I wonder whether the importers are swayed by wanting to appeal to the widest part of their obvious target market. i.e. there will be more jewish people than Israeli ex-pats, and therefore Kosher wines have a wider target market. The mistake (and I think it is a mistake) is that they miss the mass market by focussing on a small specialist market segment. Maybe it's easy to sell moderate volumes to a specialised market, than to put the hard yards in to widen that appeal.

A great champion can change that and drive wider appreciation, though saying that Rogov was one such person, yet probably still achieved little in widening that appeal. Sometimes a well-funded and enthusiastic trade marketing body can work wonders - Hazel (Murphy?) in the UK, along with the unconnected wine shops 'Oddbins', between them transformed Australian wines from a tiny share of the market, to market leaders. It can be done, but it requires a special combination of the right wines, the right people, the right network and the right time.

Much as I hate to say it, there is also no Sassicaia, Grange, Vega Sicilia, etc. a 'best of breed' wine, that develops a buzz that ripples down. I hate to say it, as the pursuit of being the big name wine has resulted in some pretty soulless cult wines the world over. What I'm more pleased to note, is the amount of experimentation that is going on to find the right grapes to grow. I'm reassured that it's not just more Cab Sav, Merlot, Chardonnay, etc. and that some low key grapes are showing promise. Just look at Argentina with Malbec and Chile with Carmenere for how sometimes an unheralded grape can find it's spiritual home.

If there would be one lesson taught by the Australian Wine Bureau, it's that the way to get the wines a wider appeal, is by getting on the road and taking those wines to as many cities as possible and to get people tasting them. Especially in the UK, but also Belgium, Holland and other non-producing countries, there is a great open-mindedness about trying different wines. Existing prejudices are less ingrained. What might be especially successful, is to do so in conjunction with the Lebanese wine industry. It would make news (and good news ), it would get people talking, but also get them tasting. It would benefit both industries, as barring Ch. Musar, few Lebanese wines are known beyond the wine geek community, though probably even they have wider recognition than Israeli wine.

... and it was a very good question

regards
Ian

Ian,
You have great points, im going to pitch it to different wine groups, critics and quasi Israeli government groups.

Where in the UK are you? a friend of mine manages the wine selection at a kosher store I believe in manchester.

Israel does hae vaarious wine festivals, has any one gone for the jerusalem wine festival?

http://www.timesofisrael.com/wine-is-no ... -festival/

Israel has a number of wine festivals and events, also Israel is small, one can visit 100 winerys all within a few hours drive

Some added points;
Israel has the ideal wine growing soil and climate, hebron is 900 meters above sea level, cool at night and dry.
I think the winery's and growers will come out with different bends and types, a friend of mine makes a delicious 5 year aged port, he also makes a cabarnet pinot noir, cab franc are getting popular in Israel and is one of my favorites.

Another article that captures somewhat of how I feel http://www.wineterroirs.com/2011/06/hev ... srael.html

Sorry to write in bursts, busy day its been, but tell me, none of you venture to the Israel board side ?

Sorry to write in bursts, busy day its been, but tell me, none of you venture to the Israel board side ?

I've haven't done so since Rogov's untimely departure. I used to enjoy the polls (for fun), his controversial opinions and wide ranging tasting notes. Another Israeli personality with his international credibility and wit could do a lot to spread the fame of Israeli wine.

Sorry to write in bursts, busy day its been, but tell me, none of you venture to the Israel board side ?

Well Elchonon, to be honest even I visit there much less frequently than before. That side became a kosher wine fan club, and while that is no doubt fine and fun for the regulars in that club, it is of little or no interest even for Israelis with broader horizons, let alone the more knowledgeable folks from elsewhere. C'est la vie...

but tell me, none of you venture to the Israel board side ?

Not now Rogov's gone and its all about kosher wines.

Im confused, as I did not inherently see Israel kosher wines any different than non.. besides for some laws.. There are a few with the capacity perhaps to replace Rogov. David Rhodes or Adam Montifiore..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brad-hask ... 51276.html
http://www.thejewishweek.com/special_se ... raeli_wine

I actually send this post to both...

Montefiore expects that in general the Israeli wine industry will “go away from the traditional Bordeaux varieties [e.g., Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot] on which we built the wine revolution in Israel, and return more to its roots, to more Mediterranean varieties [e.g., Carignan, and Grenache], which are more suitable to the climate, and a lot more interesting.”

“We’re on a journey,” says Montefiore. “Don’t look at where we are. Look at where we were 20 years ago, and look at where we might be in another 20 years — and that is very exciting.” ✦

Im confused, as I did not inherently see Israel kosher wines any different than non.. besides for some laws.. There are a few with the capacity perhaps to replace Rogov. David Rhodes or Adam Montifiore..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brad-hask ... 51276.html
http://www.thejewishweek.com/special_se ... raeli_wine

I actually send this post to both...

Montefiore expects that in general the Israeli wine industry will “go away from the traditional Bordeaux varieties [e.g., Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot] on which we built the wine revolution in Israel, and return more to its roots, to more Mediterranean varieties [e.g., Carignan, and Grenache], which are more suitable to the climate, and a lot more interesting.”

“We’re on a journey,” says Montefiore. “Don’t look at where we are. Look at where we were 20 years ago, and look at where we might be in another 20 years — and that is very exciting.” ✦

Id like to hear what you guys say regarding the prospect of Israel moving off the standard cab and merlot to a more specialized variety

Id like to hear what you guys say regarding the prospect of Israel moving off the standard cab and merlot to a more specialized variety

IMO, there is more than enough Cab and Merlot in this world and it would be fascinating if Israel could revive some of its historical grape varieties, assuming that it is possible to identify them.

With the exception of one or two from Tuscany, I have never found a Merlot from outside the Bordeaux region which really appeals to me. Cab is more geographically versatile but can Israel reveal interesting new facets to it as Ch.Musar does in its unique blend with Carignan and Cinsault?

Adam Montefiore sounds the right sort of person to continue Rogov's good work in making Israeli wines better known internationally and, as a Brit myself, I am prejudiced in his favour .

Chiming in late on this one (sorry), but echoing others: Israeli wine, whether Kosher or not, does not amount to very much in the U.S. except for a few intensely ethnic-dominated areas, mostly on the East Coast.

Quality Kosher wines tend to be few and far between. Some are foreign. Some are American. But not much of either, really.

As to Rogov. I counted him as a dear friend, although we met only on the internet (we tried, both of us, to remedy that but reality kept intruding). I always valued him immensely for his taste, his culture, his intellect, and his old world gentlemanly manner. I somewhat occasionally go to the site now that he's gone, but frankly there is so little of interest in that rather small and carefully focused community that there's little to attract me.

And no one yet has managed to capture my attention as Rogov did. But Rogov was much, much more than simply someone who lived in Israel and wrote about Kosher wine.