Old topic New Topic Twist Off Caps

At the store I notice several more current year wines from the New World, where my cellared bottles have cork, now are in twist top. Examples: Loring Wine, Mitolo, Kaeser. I know the advantages of twist caps. How long will the bottles last?

At the store I notice several more current year wines from the New World, where my cellared bottles have cork, now are in twist top. Examples: Loring Wine, Mitolo, Kaeser. I know the advantages of twist caps. How long will the bottles last?

How long have you got? In the supermarket bottle stores here you would be hard pressed to count more than a dozen wines still with corks.

Longer than corks..

[David M. Bueker]

Loring has been under screw cap since 2004.

Isn't there some concern that screw caps, if used on wines that are made to be cellared (which is something like 2 percent of all wines) screw caps are not ideal since there is no transmission of oxygen at all?

No closure is ideal.

Oxygen problem with cork is uneven transmission and excess oxygen, ref the recent Burgundy Premox issues.

How long wine will last unders screwcap depends on the liner - which is the bit that actually makes the seal. For example:

http://www.amcor.com/businesses/food/ST ... iners.html

[Robin Garr]

How long wine will last unders screwcap depends on the liner - which is the bit that actually makes the seal. For example:

http://www.amcor.com/businesses/food/ST ... iners.html

I have often wondered about this. With the caveat that I love screw caps, the assertion that they remain airtight forever has always struck me as iffy. After all, it's a metal cap with a series of slots along the break line, and it is separated from glass by a very thin layer of foil and ... vinyl? Paper? Saran™ Tin!? Point is, the hardware issue still seems like the weakest link, and even if cork taint is eliminated from the picture, how thorough is the research affirming the durability and neutral nature of, um, Saran™ Tin?

With the caveat that I love screw caps, the assertion that they remain airtight forever has always struck me as iffy.

But does anyone assert they remain airtight 'for ever'?

Corks don't last for ever either, they need replacing in long aged wine.

I'd guess the question mark is how good the plastic is at keeping the tin pressed onto the top of the bottle - the plastic would slowly deteriorate. But tin is very stable chemically, and I understand a layer (however thin) of metal is pretty impervious to oxygen. Hopefully our resident chemistry Prof will drop by and back up these woolly assertions/guesses based on half-remembered factoids.

Wonder if re-screwcapping services will be offered in the future...?

[Robin Garr]

But does anyone assert they remain airtight 'for ever'?

Well ... you responded up-thread with the statement "longer than corks." Can you point to studies, or is there a bit of cheerleading and wishful thinking there?

I repeat, I'm not bashing screwcaps here. I love them, I agree that they resolve the taint issue forever, and I agree that they'll last a good long time. But can we rigorously assert that they last "longer than corks" if not "for ever"?

How long wine will last unders screwcap depends on the liner - which is the bit that actually makes the seal. For example:

http://www.amcor.com/businesses/food/ST ... iners.html

I have often wondered about this. With the caveat that I love screw caps, the assertion that they remain airtight forever has always struck me as iffy. After all, it's a metal cap with a series of slots along the break line, and it is separated from glass by a very thin layer of foil and ... vinyl? Paper? Saran™ Tin!? Point is, the hardware issue still seems like the weakest link, and even if cork taint is eliminated from the picture, how thorough is the research affirming the durability and neutral nature of, um, Saran™ Tin?

What's wrong with tin, Robin?

[Robin Garr]

What's wrong with tin, Robin?

Oliver, I'm sorry, I thought I stated it clearly, but maybe not clearly enough: I didn't say anything was "wrong" with it, I asked whether there's been rigorous research on the Stelvin-type liners and scored metal caps as oxygen barriers. I also got a bit of a chuckle out of the Saran™ part rather than the Tin part, really. I'm pretty sure there are people out there who fret about chemical transfer from Saran™ wrap to foods.

I feel a need to keep repeating: I am a fan of screw caps. And I love the fact that they are a 100 percent certain cure for TCA taint.

But I do sometimes wonder if the cheerleading we see among wine geeks for Stelvin is any more realistic than some of the cheerleading we see for tree-bark cork.

Robin - There is as far as I know plenty of evidence for new tin-lined screwcaps being a good oxygen barrier. See page 30 of this for example: http://www.scorpex.net/ASEVClosures2005RGibson.pdf

But if I understand you right, you are concerned about how the screwcap might degrade to allow in more oxygen? It's a fair concern, but I think the more usual one is how wine might age over decades in the absence of oxygen.

But does anyone assert they remain airtight 'for ever'?

Well ... you responded up-thread with the statement "longer than corks." Can you point to studies, or is there a bit of cheerleading and wishful thinking there?

I'm finding many corks in 10 year old wines are degrading and in 20 year old wines many corks are in poor condition, although of course some corks do their job for much longer.

My oldest screwcapped wine is 2001 vintage. I opened one in March this year and it ws perfect.

George M Taber in 'To Cork or Not to Cork'* reports that Penfolds hold recorking clinics where anyone can bring in a bottle of Penfolds wine that is 15 years or more 'and have it examined to ses how the cork is holding up. Usually, but not always, the old cork is exchanged for a new one.' which suggests that after 15 years natural cork begins to decline as a closure.

Regarding studies on comparative longevity; I don't know if that is being done but if it is then it needs longer since screwcaps for wines meant for drinking are relatively recent, there isn't a library of wines closed with a screwcap a 100 years or even 50 years ago.

'Wine Bottle Closures' by Jamie Goode** quotes Michael Bradkovitch of Kumea River Wines, NZ. 'Screwcaps are 'guaranteed' to last at least 10 years if the bottle and application machinery are correct. In practice we have seen screwcaps last for 25–30 years without problem,' says Brajkovich. He adds, 'Given that corks should really be replaced after about 30 years, the use of screwcaps for long term red wine ageing is definitely within the normal performance specifications of other closures, and time will tell just how good they are at performing the job.'

The International Screwcap Initiative website*** says
Over the past 30 years, screwcap manufacturers have researched the question of the best available liner at great length. In stark comparison to the liners used in the 1960s (at the time of the first trials) and also in the early 1970s, liners are now made of an intricate layering of food grade polymer (in contact with the wine), tin and a final all-important layer of expanded polyethylene which maintains the pressure and ensures that the screwcaps maintain an airtight seal.

Currently, some screwcap manufacturers guarantee their closures for 10 years (compared to 3 years for most synthetic corks). The oldest bottled samples available are now over 30 years old and are still holding up well - so the real answer is that we don’t know how long screwcaps can seal bottles, as we quite simply haven’t got that far yet !

I think if we are talking about wines meant for long term aging of 40 plus years that while we know cork has its faults its track record is known whereas few have any experience of 40 year old screwcapped wines and anyway the screwcaps of 40 years ago are not the same as today.

But the issues I have seen discussed when considered using screwcaps for aging focus on oxygen transmission and reduction, rather than the ability of the cap itself to do its job over that time. And if it was I suppose that replacing the closure is as possible as Penfolds do with cork.



* 2007 Scribner page 243
** 2006 Flavour Press, page 73
*** http://www.screwcapinitiative.com/norma ... &pageID=24

[Robin Garr]

But if I understand you right, you are concerned about how the screwcap might degrade to allow in more oxygen? It's a fair concern, but I think the more usual one is how wine might age over decades in the absence of oxygen.

That's it, Steve.

Honestly, I don't want to over-think this. Really, all I'm doing here is speculating that hatred of tree-bark cork may be prompting wine geeks toward the same sort of dewy-eyed lack of skepticism toward the new closures as we brought for too many years to the old ones. And we have already seen this play out, to some degree, in the quick rise and subsequent fall of synthetic stoppers, which from my vantage point have few fans any more, having demonstrated quickly their inability to hold wine for even short-term cellaring.

I guess all I'm really suggesting is that we won't know for certain whether Stelvin can go the route until we've given it time to prove itself. At the risk of repetition, I am very, very happy with the Stelvin closure; but I'm also curious to see how it works out with more time and experience.

Robin,

Synthetic stoppers were always understood to be technically inferior; perhaps the only benefit was that they looked kind of like corks, and that they didn't require different glass or different bottling equipment.

Screwcaps are a completely different thing; speaking for myself, the reason I am enthusiastic about them is because I am competely sick of dealing with cork-related problems, whether caused by TCA, random oxidation, or anything else (I once had to throw away 400 cases of very good sparkling wine because of a cork problem). I want to think about the wine, not the packaging.

I repeat, I'm not bashing screwcaps here. I love them, I agree that they resolve the taint issue forever, and I agree that they'll last a good long time. But can we rigorously assert that they last "longer than corks" if not "for ever"?

It is possible to have a TCA-tainted wine under screwcap, and I have actually tasted one. It is possible to have the TCA in a badly maintained oak barrel.

As to why someone would go out of their way to produce a wine that "needs" to be aged for 30-40 years before it is drinkable, or at its best, is beyond my comprehension. All well and good if you start collecting wine when you are 20 years old, and KNOW what you are collecting, have somewhere to store it, and are still drinking wine when you are 50-60 years old. But for the majority of the wine drinking population this does not apply. And if a wine is aged for 30 years by the producer the average wine drinker can probably not afford to buy a bottle of it to see if a young RP was right with his 98 point score.

I like the idea that a few wines need 30 years before they show their true colors, being something of a Luddite. But discussing the benefits of a closure on the basis of whether it suits this minuscule proportion of wine seems to me very strange.

On the other hand, if we're accepting that everything else, the other 99%, should be under screwcaps, maybe progress is being made.

We have a good discussion going here, but mostly on rehashed material. As Robin pointed out here a few weeks ago, corked wines have been decreasing dramatically over the past few years. And now we have another option in the fight against TCA, Diamark semi-sythetic corks ( diam-cork.com/ ) making corks from processed natural cork. Check it out, and if you've been paying attention of the last year or so, you will have noticed the new Diam corks with their distinctive look and the inevitable trademark. Let's hope for continued improvement.

We have a good discussion going here, but mostly on rehashed material. As Robin pointed out here a few weeks ago, corked wines have been decreasing dramatically over the past few years. And now we have another option in the fight against TCA, Diamark semi-sythetic corks ( diam-cork.com/ ) making corks from processed natural cork. Check it out, and if you've been paying attention of the last year or so, you will have noticed the new Diam corks with their distinctive look and the inevitable trademark. Let's hope for continued improvement.

Rehashing old discussions is no bad thing. There will be a number of new members/lurker around who have not been part of the previous ramblings.

I sometimes think Diams are a PITN as they are often very hard to get out, then even harder to reinsert into the bottle when you only want to drink the top half of it in a sitting.

Not the experience that I've had. And they now produce a Diam-5 (guaranteed for 5 years) as well as a Diam-10 (10 year Guarantee). You have to admit they are far better than the hideous synthetic corks that you cannot even get off you corkscrew after extraction. I think the Diams have a bright future. But I don't have any problem with screwcaps either.

Off topic a touch. Was James Goode not someone who used to be on WLDG?

Off topic a touch. Was James Goode not someone who used to be on WLDG?

Jamie last visited in June 2010.