WTN, kind of: cheap rhone experiment

[Jenise]

So while at the Saturday market Bob and I wandered into a little chain grocer called Petit Casino and wondered aloud, while looking at the wine shelf, what three euros buys you--there were actually a goodly number of bottles in that range. That is, what chance does a total stranger have of getting lucky for three euros in a little market whose clientele just wants something serviceable to go with a meal. Just how bad would these wines be? Would they be simple, industrial, dilute?

So we selected two, both 2009 Cotes du Rhones and both made and bottled by their producer: Les Bois des Grives and Cellier du Dauhpines, and we opened them to taste with lunch knowing we had many bottles of better wine as backups. And you know what?

They were GOOD. Nothing industrial or dilute about either. Not even that simple, just lighter bodied than the Giggies and Vacqueyrases we've been admiring. Honest, delicious, straightforward Rhones--the Dauphines a bit more dusty with raspberry notes, and the Grives showing a bit more black fruit and spice (a wine Dave said you could bottle and sell for $20 in Canada all day long). Both had appropriate acidity and enough tannin to keep the wine lively in the mouth. Texturally speaking, they were more like pinot noir, a style I not only like but need and prefer to the to the heavy Soumades we had in Rasteau (mind you, neither Bill nor Dave will agree with me on this.)

I am so jealous of a country where this is possible.

Jenise, in many French supermarkets there is some local autonomy given in wine buying. If Petit Casino is like that, it is logical that their local buyer knows his way around his/her own region's wines and that local customers are not going to be palmed of with industrial rubbish instead of the real thing. It's my guess that, say, Bordeaux bought in the same branch would be much less likely to be well chosen.

Glad to hear that this is still possible over there. When I was in summer school in Cannes back in 1960 we used to pick up a hunk of cheese and a bottle of Rouge de Provence almost every afternoon on the way to the beach. The wine cost 75 Centimes or $.15. I brought a couple of bottles back home and gave one to an uncle who was a bit of a geek and also startling blunt about things. He liked it very much.

[James Roscoe]

When we were in Paris about two years ago I was amazed at what two to three Euros bought! It was enough to make me want to stay!

If Petit Casino is like that, it is logical that their local buyer knows his way around his/her own region's wines and that local customers are not going to be palmed of with industrial rubbish instead of the real thing..

FWIW, I think Cellier des Dauphins is pretty large and can be found in a wide range French supermarkets. While living in Paris it was one of those cheap names that always showed up to big parties where most people spend less than 5euros on their contribution.

The Cellier des Dauphines is quite large, and Jenise will be able to find them when she gets back stateside. They've been coming in for some years and they're often seen in bargain-priced areas in the wine stores and grocery stores.

I think one of the absolute strengths of the Rhone as a region is the ability to put even modest priced reds out that are worth drinking. Don't know of any other region that does it as well as the Rhone* (well, including the Provence/Rhone areas of the Ventoux and Luberon). It is truly astonishing how many "value priced" wines of startling good quality there are available in the Rhone Valley

When we stayed in our gite in the area (in Mormoiron) and careened around, we made a habit of stopping in every "degustation vente" we could, and stocking up. Sort of a random assortment of places...and the quality was just stunning. Even the poorest wines were pleasing. (And I, of course, made sure there was plenty of rose' in the mix---one of the other pleasures of the Rhone is those people prize a good rose'---they know how to make 'em, and they know how to drink 'em, no fools they.)

*(Sorry, Alex, but Bordeaux isn't even in the game here. )

[James Roscoe]

*(Sorry, Alex, but Bordeaux isn't even in the game here. )

But they could be and they probably should be.

The growers in Bordeaux could be producing excellent qpr wines if their heads weren't up their proverbial butts! (IMHO)

The other amazing difference to me is the quality of the 'house wine' in most parts of France versus Canada. The latter country serves the cheapest gutrot they can find, whereas the restaurants in France serve a local wine that is usually very well chosen. And let's not even mention the difference between the markup of a bottle of wine at restaurants in North America versus most of Europe!

*(Sorry, Alex, but Bordeaux isn't even in the game here. )

But they could be and they probably should be.

The growers in Bordeaux could be producing excellent qpr wines if their heads weren't up their proverbial butts! (IMHO)

I'm not sure that it would be possible for them to produce quality wines at that pricepoint. I suspect land costs are higher, even in Entre deux Mers etc. But mainly I think that the cooler climate and the varietals make it harder to get fully ripe wines without a bit more effort/expense. I think it would be easier to do large quantities at low cost in a warmer climate, though maybe someone with real knowledge could prove me wrong.

And let's not even mention the difference between the markup of a bottle of wine at restaurants in North America versus most of Europe!

Don't get euphoric about wine prices in French restaurants; multipliers of 3 or 4 x cost are standard and more for the cheapest wines on the list. This very day there is a Le Figaro poll about restaurant wine prices in restaurants where 90%+ considers them excessive and one reader tells of a wine which retails for €4 being listed in a restaurant at €25. It's much the same here in Belgium.

In my experience, Italy is much better. For example, I've had a Barolo in a restaurant at Monforte d'Alba which was marked up by ONLY about 40% compared with the price at the enoteca in the village square.

[Jenise]

If Petit Casino is like that, it is logical that their local buyer knows his way around his/her own region's wines and that local customers are not going to be palmed of with industrial rubbish instead of the real thing..

FWIW, I think Cellier des Dauphins is pretty large and can be found in a wide range French supermarkets. While living in Paris it was one of those cheap names that always showed up to big parties where most people spend less than 5euros on their contribution.

Actually, I chose it because we drive past the tasting room when heading toward Avignon and Orange so it was a name I associated with a very old building and presumed had been around awhile. Not much to go on, and it was certainly the lesser of the two wines, but at least having laid eyes on the building was enough to make it seem like a safer choice. (The truth is probably that they paid some farmer to let them put their name on his old stone building while the actual winery is some tin building in an industrial park.)

Jenise,

>>>They were GOOD. Nothing industrial or dilute about either.

Cellier des Dauphins produce... 45 million bottles of wine a year.
http://www.keldelice.com/producteurs/le ... s-dauphins

I'm with you. There is SO much - frequently inadvertent - snobbism when it comes to wine.
Or food (especially restaurants) for that matter.
You see the curled lips when it is question of a wine from a négociant or cooperative rather than a domaine.

My friends in England and America can oftentimes buy the best wines of Bordeaux at retail level cheaper than I can.
Such is the absurdity of distribution (and I can find cult California wines in England cheaper than you can buy them in the States).
But what they can't buy is just the sort of wines you are talking about *at the price point you cited*.

Dale, you know how much I defend affordable Bordeaux, but I'll agree with you here. I think at that very inexpensive level, the Rhône Valley and appellations like Corbières are usually a better deal.

The world of wine is infinite, and thanks for reminding us, Jenise, how much pleasure can be found in wines anyone can afford.

All the best,
Alex R.

The world of wine is infinite, and thanks for reminding us, Jenise, how much pleasure can be found in wines anyone can afford.

Just so.

And this, after all, and outside the realms of this group and this board, is the true hope and reality of the future of wine. We, arguably "elite" in that we seek out and enjoy individually excellent wines, are but a small, small portion of the wine production and consumption world (although well think we add a certain amount of class, sophistication and excellent good taste to the mix ).

But we most strongly support the smallest percentage of producers, and the health of the category we so love is dependent upon those wines anyone can afford being as appealling---and available--- as possible.

[Jenise]

The world of wine is infinite, and thanks for reminding us, Jenise, how much pleasure can be found in wines anyone can afford.

All the best,
Alex R.

It was truly informative and a bit humbling. I only wish that the homes of people I go to back home who typically shop in the $10 and under range would/COULD pour me something as close to a simple pleasure as these two wines. Btw, both have been on the counter for three days now, open, and they're not in decay.

Cellier des Dauphins often sells for less than 2€ retail.
I don't want to be rude but do you really think that leaves enough room for the growers to make a decent leaving?
10 years ago growers bringing grapes to coops use to get about 1 € for 1 kg. These days it is more like 0.40 €. The maximum yields they are allowed to produce is about 6 tons per hectare. Which means less than 2400 € per year and per ha. A grower working 10 ha - and it's a lot of work, believe me, gets an raw income of 24000 €. He will have to pay for fuel, treatments, harvest... which doesn't leave much for leaving at the end. Probably close to nothing.
In the Rhone Vallée, over 3000 growers had to quit growing vines during the past 10 years.
So knowing that cellier is making acceptable wines for incredibly low price is quite sad news for us,the still alive artisanal producers from the same area.

Eric,

I don't know where you live. In Soutwest France you cannot find Cellier des Dauphins for double the price you mentioned.

This is a cooperative cellar, and a very well-organized and trailblazing one at that.
They understood about brands long before many others...

As for people grubbing up vines and abandoning winegrowing, that is a complicated phenomenon.
Young people do not want all that hard work anymore and they are attracted by the excitement of the cities.
Rural France is losing much of its population.
I think that the cost of the tonne of grapes, or the price of tomatoes, is not the most important factor. It's that the consumer society has hit France in a big way.The present generation wants a comfortable, bourgeois life and many, amazingly, long to be civil servants more than anything else.
The proportion of farmers, of all sorts, has dropped dramatically over the past few years. Seeing as the price of French produce is heavily subsidized, the financial aspect is not the only one. It's a lifestyle thing.

I also think that the Cellier des Dauphins is not rueful about selling at competitive prices because they are able to take advantage of economies of scale and, in fact, are the envy of most other cooperatives in France.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Alex

Are you serious????

In Soutwest France you cannot find Cellier des Dauphins for double the price you mentioned.

http://www.superu-fonbeauzard.fr/cotes- ... ,13,22.htm

Eric,

I most certainly don't want prices to be so low as to begrudge a living for growers and winemakers---and most especially the artisanal winemakers!

I would like to believe though, that not all wines sell for the same price and that there is enough room in the world of wine to have the inexpensive, the moderately priced, the expensive...and yes, even the hideously expensive for those that need that sort of thing.

I would like (still) to have some fill-your-own wines for ridiculously low prices in the wineries. I would also like to have some modestly priced wines available at home. I would not expect to pay one Euro a bottle for a Texier wine; neither would I expect to pay $1,000. I would gladly pay several price ranges in between however, for the pleasure of a Texier wine.

Some (a very few) co-ops make exceptional wine. Most make passable wine, regional wine. But it takes the passionate and devoted artisanal winemaker to turn out wines of character and distinctive style. I don't think one negates the other. I think there always will be, and should be, a market for co-op wine, just as there always will be a market for artisanal wine.

Lots of people in Europe drive Fiat Unos or such. But I still manage to see lots of BMWs and Mercedes too.

Eric,

The price you found (50% higher than the one you mentioned) on special offer, in your part of the country, is not representative of what you find here in Bordeaux, nor do I think in Ile de France.

As for "am I serious"? Yes, the answer is very much so.
Urban French people (i.e., most of the population) have a romanticized and pretty erroneous view of the rural life in their country. This explains, for instance, why the next round of "discussions" regarding the EU Common Agricultural Policy will be so painful. Forty percent of the entire EU budget is spent on agricultural subsidies, and French benefits greatly from this (more than any other country, I believe). Most other European countries are scandalized by this self-serving behavior, but the larger European countries have ways of smothering the smaller ones, and a hard core of obnoxious French farmers (such as ones belonging to the infamous FNSEA and Coordination Rurale) also has a way of blocking roads, burning prefectures, etc.
Notwithstanding protectionist policies by such countries as the US, this system completely skews the market and does great harm to developing countries who are unfairly penalized.

Like GMOs, many French people become completely irrational when it comes to discussing rural development. Conservatism is deeply rooted to the point of blindness and absurdity.

C'est le politiquement correcte à la française.
That makes heroes of such (expletive deleted) as José Bové.

Best regards,
Alex R.

many French people become completely irrational when it comes to discussing rural development. Conservatism is deeply rooted to the point of blindness and absurdity.

Just to light-heartedly interject:

Is this not what makes France...well, France? Sometimes passion must trump logic. The complete opposite is true in Germany, where rationality rules all.

Cheers,

Bill

Eric,

The price you found (50% higher than the one you mentioned) on special offer, in your part of the country, is not representative of what you find here in Bordeaux, nor do I think in Ile de France.

As for "am I serious"? Yes, the answer is very much so.
Urban French people (i.e., most of the population) have a romanticized and pretty erroneous view of the rural life in their country. This explains, for instance, why the next round of "discussions" regarding the EU Common Agricultural Policy will be so painful. Forty percent of the entire EU budget is spent on agricultural subsidies, and French benefits greatly from this (more than any other country, I believe). Most other European countries are scandalized by this self-serving behavior, but the larger European countries have ways of smothering the smaller ones, and a hard core of obnoxious French farmers (such as ones belonging to the infamous FNSEA and Coordination Rurale) also has a way of blocking roads, burning prefectures, etc.
Notwithstanding protectionist policies by such countries as the US, this system completely skews the market and does great harm to developing countries who are unfairly penalized.

Like GMOs, many French people become completely irrational when it comes to discussing rural development. Conservatism is deeply rooted to the point of blindness and absurdity.

C'est le politiquement correcte à la française.
That makes heroes of such (expletive deleted) as José Bové.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Dear AlexR

I certainly won't waiste my time during harvest trying to show that Cellier des Dauphins is usually selling for less than 1€ whosale professionnal price. You can ask wine business people if you want, or not. Aldi sells it for its Foire au vins at 10.99 for 6 packs. Feel free not to believe me.

For the rest, your second post convinces me that we probably don't and won't share much.

FWIW, I'm with Alex on this one: the agricultural subsidies pushed primarily (though certainly not only) by France and increasing urbanization in general are the primary reasons for such low grape and wine prices in France. Also, hasn't there been a decreasing demand (i.e., lower consumption) for wine in France over the last 10-15 years?

But given the ridiculous things all governments spend money on (including trillion dollar wars and the by some counts 700+ military bases and facilities the American government operates around the world...French agricultural subsidies seem pretty ...harmless.

As for roads, Sorry Alec, but driving yet more expressways through prime...or even not so prime farmland...does not seem like a completely blameless venture in ALL cases. I'm not so sure that GMOs are as proven as industry-sponsored scientists claim, either. (Protects head from brickbats coming his way).