WTN: Ipso facto reducto ('09 ESJ)

[David M. Bueker]

I am loath to post this, but decided I needed to put it out there. Last night I opened 2 separate bottles of the 2009 Edmunds St. John Bone Jolly Gamay Rose. Each one was distinctly reduced. The first was more like a burning tire than wine, while the second settled down to fresh skid marks, but was still dominantly rubbery. Every other bottle of this wine I have opened (4) has been fine, but these 2 were undrinkable.

I have been an unabashed screw cap supporter, but some recent bottles have shaken my belief to a great degree.

[Robin Garr]

I am loath to post this, but decided I needed to put it out there. Last night I opened 2 separate bottles of the 2009 Edmunds St. John Bone Jolly Gamay Rose. Each one was distinctly reduced. The first was more like a burning tire than wine, while the second settled down to fresh skid marks, but was still dominantly rubbery. Every other bottle of this wine I have opened (4) has been fine, but these 2 were undrinkable.

I have been an unabashed screw cap supporter, but some recent bottles have shaken my belief to a great degree.

David, did you try the penny trick? Reductiveness is usually quickly reversible, through copper exposure (even to the tiny bit of copper remaining in a modern penny) and/or vigorous aeration.

David, did you try the penny trick? Reductiveness is usually quickly reversible, through copper exposure (even to the tiny bit of copper remaining in a modern penny) and/or vigorous aeration.

My son bought me one of those Vinturi wine aerator things that came with a fine screen. Last year I made some Pinot Gris that was strongly reductive, due to a yeast choice and lack of nutrients. I placed a clean penny in the screen and passed a bottle of the wine through it twice. The wine improved significantly and became drinkable, but not as good as if the problem had not occurred in the first place.

[David M. Bueker]

It's interesting that both the penny trick and the vinturi were mentioned, as I tried both with negligible change.

[Robin Garr]

It's interesting that both the penny trick and the vinturi were mentioned, as I tried both with negligible change.

Hmm ... that should have worked, and almost always does in my experience. Is there any chance it could have been some other sulfur issue than reduction? I wonder if Steve Edmunds has any ideas. The reason I'm just a little dubious, David, is that the widely publicized issues about Stelvin and reduction have reportedly been 99.44% solved by technical changes at bottling - sparging and headroom, I think - and I would expect Steve to be au courant with that.

I am loath to post this, but decided I needed to put it out there. Last night I opened 2 separate bottles of the 2009 Edmunds St. John Bone Jolly Gamay Rose. Each one was distinctly reduced. The first was more like a burning tire than wine, while the second settled down to fresh skid marks, but was still dominantly rubbery. Every other bottle of this wine I have opened (4) has been fine, but these 2 were undrinkable.

I have been an unabashed screw cap supporter, but some recent bottles have shaken my belief to a great degree.

As I mentioned before I had this issue with a bottle of Heart of Gold. The Bone Jolly I had was fine (actually it was wonderful, but we're talking technical issues not the wine per se).

John Gilman just wrote a piece on ESJ and noted a large number of bottles under screwcap that showed signs of reduction.

I believe he is an unabashed critic of screwcaps FWIW.

I wonder if this is related soley to the screwcaps or if there is something with the ESJ bottles in particular that exacerbates the issue?

If it smells of H2S and copper wont fix the problem it has progressed past simple H2S to most likely a disulfide or mercaptan. I don't think there is anything that can be done at that point. Not sure how that develops in the bottle as my experience is that it is generally present before bottling.

We will give the '09 Bone Jolly an official taste test tomorrow at MOCOOL.

For what it's worth, I happened to open a bottle of the '09 rosé last night, and there was a very slight reductive note on the smell, but the wine was delicious.
We did an aerative racking of the rosé in November to bind up a bit of H2S that developed in tank, and it seemed as clean as a whistle afterward, and at bottling, in early March. I do believe the condition of the wine going into bottle is the critical question. Our '06 That Old Black Magic (Syrah and Grenache) was bottled under screwcap in '07, and has not yet shown any sign of reduction.
I don't yet really feel like I have a solid handle on these issues yet, and I hope to get better at it.

[David M. Bueker]

No issues with the '06 OBM here either!

A couple of events in the last two days prompted the opening of several more bottles of the '09 pink, and there were no signs of reduction at all, which really makes me wonder what to think. There's no question that I've encountered reduction in a few bottles, and sometimes it seems more noticeable than other times.
Has anyone tried to do any studies that focus on the factors involved in different perceptions of a given wine at different times (though not involving significant differences in the age of the wine in question), under different circumstances (in different company, with different foods, different times of day, week, month, year, etc.?)? Is this stuff quantifiable? Is there a way to think about this that gives us any insight?

I opened a bottle of the 09 ESJ BJ pink last night, searched hard for reduction and didn't find it. That said, I think I'm fairly insensitive to some reductive odors, though I find sometimes, both in screwcaps (08 ESJ Por. Gamay, 07 Hirsch Riesling) and not (Le Galantine Bandol, a cheap Malbec).

I opened a bottle of the 09 ESJ BJ pink last night, searched hard for reduction and didn't find it...

The bottle that Julia brought to MOCOOL was fine also.

[The bottle that Julia brought to MOCOOL was fine also.

Actually I opened two Bone~Jolly 09s during the MoCool weekend..both a symphony of lush ripe strawberries with lively tart cherry undertones. Made me want to dance!


JB

[The bottle that Julia brought to MOCOOL was fine also.

Actually I opened two Bone~Jolly 09s during the MoCool weekend..both a symphony of lush ripe strawberries with lively tart cherry undertones. Made me want to dance!


JB

Is that what you call those strange gyrations we witnessed Friday night?

You opened two and somehow I missed both. Never saw the B-J in Cincinnati area.

You opened two and somehow I missed both. Never saw the B-J in Cincinnati area.

Mike-
Vintners Select is carrying a bit wider selection of Steve's wines of late, so you might want to check with them. In recent months I've been able to score the Bone Jolly(s), OBM, Heart of Gold and a couple of others here in Indiana. I've been told that the 2009 Rocks and Gravel should hit VS around September 1.
'Winger

Question? I am under the impression that reduction is wine produced in the absence of oxygen. So why would not exposure to air, though it may take 1-3 days eventually solve the problem? Your thoughts?

Question? I am under the impression that reduction is wine produced in the absence of oxygen...

That is not actually correct. Oxidation is a chemical process where a substance reacts with oxygen. Reduction is the opposite reaction. In wine, that usually means the production of H2S (hydrogen sulfide - the rotten egg smell). The cause is usually from a lack of yeast nutrients, including nitrogen, during fermentation. Different yeast strains have different nutrient requirements, some which little or no additions, while others have high requirements. Often, if not addressed in a timely manner, by exposing the wine to air and/or copper, the H2S will combine with chemicals in the wine to produce mercaptans, which are highly aromatic and stinky compounds. They are much harder to correct in wine and often totally ruin it. Mercaptans are added in trace quantities so people can smell natural gas. In wine tasting, both H2S and mercaptans are referred to as a reduction flaw.

Just to expand on what Howie wrote, mercaptans can convert into disulfides; these could be less objectionable odors and smells. Some believe that in favorable concentrations certain disulfides could contribute to “varietal character”. Now once in the bottle and depending upon the “bottle environment” disulfides can revert back into the more objectionable mercaptans.

Salute

I am loath to post this, but decided I needed to put it out there. Last night I opened 2 separate bottles of the 2009 Edmunds St. John Bone Jolly Gamay Rose. Each one was distinctly reduced. The first was more like a burning tire than wine, while the second settled down to fresh skid marks, but was still dominantly rubbery. Every other bottle of this wine I have opened (4) has been fine, but these 2 were undrinkable.

I have been an unabashed screw cap supporter, but some recent bottles have shaken my belief to a great degree.

David,

did this go away with air? It doesn't sound like it.

[David M. Bueker]

No it did not Oliver.

As Brian had noted exposing the wine to air will not rid the wine of mercaptans. David, I believe also applied the “copper penny trick”. If mercaptans were the only culprit (and if there was no other “source” for mercaptans to develop present in the wine) David should of noticed a diminish in the “fault” or an “improvement” in the wine to some degree. But I don’t believe he did. So from this I would assume disulfides (which at one time could of contributed positive aspects to the wine’s aroma and flavor) were being converted back into mercaptans.
As far as Richards question goes, we could only wish it worked that way. Tell you the truth I’m not sure anyone really knows the answer. My guess would be, since the chemistry of the wine is ever so slightly changing the redox potential (its affinity for substances to loss electrons (oxidation) and other substances to gain electrons (reduction)- just think of Oil-Rig, oxidation is loss - reduction is gain) is also altered. So just by doing the “reverse” or “opposite “will not necessarily “correct” or bring the wine back to its “original state” (whatever that means). Besides letting the wine stay exposed to air for 1 to 3 days one must also consider what changes could take place between other components of the wine.

Salute

Also worth keeping in mind that a wine (or, more importantly, a batch of wine) that has undergone reduction will continue on its way on that process as it rests in the bottle. Like all faults that throw a wine out of balance or add a specific fault, that imbalance or fault will never "settle down" and will increase over time.

Rule for me: Fnd a wine undergong reduction and try several other bottles. If reduction is consistent throughout one's tasting drink up whatever stock you have as quickly as feasible (assuming that the wine is drinkable).

Best
Rogov