Contrary to popular belief, Bordeaux is not overpriced

This is NOT a troll.

My post is in 2 parts.

The first part has to do with the pricing of the 2009 great growths.
This is a quote from an article by César Compadre in today's Sud-Ouest (the Bordeaux newspaper):

"Certes la qualité du millésime 2009 est reconnue et le marché chinois tire la demande mais ces tarifs laisse dubitatifs. Quand on sait que ces bouteilles coûtent autour de 10 euros à produire, c'est 440 euros de marge par flacon (avant impôt) pour le propriétaire… Ce n'est pas de la viticulture, c'est du tiroir-caisse. Et sur des quantités astronomiques puisque ces propriétés, comme souvent pour les crus classés du Médo, sont très vaste (il y a aussi les seconds vins)".

Same thing in English:

"While the quality of the 2009 vintage is widely-acknowledged, and the Chinese market is fueling demand, the sales prices have raised a great deal of doubt. When you take into account that it costs about 10 euros a bottle to produce these wines, that leaves a (pre-tax) profit margin of 440 euros a bottle for the château owner… This isn't about winegrowing, this is a cash cow. And the quantities involved are huge, as is often the case for the great growths of the Médoc (there are also the second wines to consider).

And this comment is from the *Bordeaux* newspaper!

It sums up the paradox of Bordeaux beautifully. Although I'd contest the cost price of a bottle of Lafite or Margaux, the argument is basically sound.
The same article points out that the average price increase for the 340 great wines that have come out so far is +48% compared to 2008, +35% compared to 2007, and +18% compared to 2005.
The name wines are selling briskly.

A bottle of first growth (still in barrel) now costs more than an entire barrel (225 litres/300 bottles) of Bordeaux rouge.

The journalist points out that the great growths have traditionally been the standard bearers of Bordeaux. However, he now wonders whether they do more harm than good to the region taken as a whole.

The second part of my post is simply to point out that these great growths (some of which have now reached astronomic prices), if taken all together, represent not even 5% of production in Bordeaux.

Therefore, it is nonsensical to vituperate against "Bordeaux" when what you really mean is the great growths. I'd like to ask those of you fuming about the price of the elite wines of Bordeaux not to forget the other 95%!

Certainly, the 50-55% of wines from the Bordeaux and Bordeaux Supérieur appellations are a mixed bag. But please consider the many excellent cru bourgeois of the Médoc, the wines of the southern Graves, satellites of Saint-Emilion, Côtes de Bordeaux, etc. These remain excellent values.

Although wines at the top of the pyramid have now priced many people out of the market, let us not shun the good value wines of Bordeaux - of which there are plenty.
Because no one does Cabernet Sauvignon or Merlot better, and one mustn't throw the baby out with the bath water!

Best regards,
Alex R.

[David M. Bueker]

Where are the names wines selling briskly? I keep hearing that, but then I also hear that the first tranches were minuscule. I also hear (from actual humans ITB trying to sell the wines) that the '09s are not selling through to the consumer in the USA. So is China actually snapping up the wine?

As for the reaction against Bordeaux being based on the top 5% of the wines - that's what is in the market outside of France. Bordeaux needs some aggressive person with a passion for the wines to seek out the best of the un/under-represented wines & actively get them into the markets. Without that the 95% of Bordeaux will remain irrelevant. It's hardly the consumer's/press' fault, as those who sell the wines from Bordeaux push this image & leave the great majority of the wines (good and bad) stuck in the mud.

Physician, heal thyself.

A tough but reasonable response, David, to Alex's also reasonable point that the top 5% are hurting the rest because of their power to define the entire appelation's image. But it occurred to me while reading that Chambers has some tasty Bordeaux for less than $20 that would bear out Alex's point, and yet I rarely buy them. When I ask myself why, it has to do with a certain ennui with the entire Bordeaux experience, its mainstreamness, its big chateauness, its media pervasiveness, its frequent vertical tastings. It's often extremely fine after a decade or more and undoubtedly the gold standard, but just so basically and fundamentally uncool. For the geek that wants to boldly go (admittedly a minority, even in message boards), Bordeaux is just NOT the place to go fishing, not even those 95% that are reasonably priced.

David,

As Oswaldo says, a tough, but (mostly) reasonable response.

2009s: Yes, it appears that the US market is timid. Most of the wine is going elsewhere.
Statistics: There is no way of knowing for sure. The closest you can come is two or three years down the road when the official statistics of physical exports within a given appellation are released – but even that is only part of the story because of wine being re-sold.
We like things kinda opaque J.

I would contest the fact that only the 5% of Bordeaux is of interest outside of France. Other European countries import shitloads of modest Bordeaux. I agree that the picture is very different in the States. I also agree "Bordeaux needs some aggressive person with a passion for the wines to seek out the best of the un/under-represented wines & actively get them into the markets". You certainly hit the nail on the head there.
You say it is "hardly the consumer's/press' fault", but I would temper that.
It seems that many distributors/retailers/restaurateurs want wine that is "pre-sold", i.e., waiting for a ready market because of media coverage. No one is willing to stick their head out for a wonderful wine if there's not a ready market for it.
Oswaldo,
Your reaction to modest Bordeaux reminds me of my reaction to Alsatian wines. I mostly like them when I drink them, and have them in my cellar, but for some weird and wonderful reason I rarely go down and get one…
The things you reproach affordable Bordeaux ("chateauness, its media pervasiveness, its frequent vertical tastings") really don't apply to the small producers…
I'll admit that there is a "status quo" side to Bordeaux, but it is not a fault if something is reliable, is it?
"Going boldly out" has its thrills, and I'm all for a voyage of discovery. But I'm sorry, it's not fair to say that "Bordeaux is "NOT the place to go fishing, not even those 95% that are reasonably priced".
There are some mighty fine fish here, including ones that won't break the bank.

Best regards,
Alex R.

But I'm sorry, it's not fair to say that "Bordeaux is "NOT the place to go fishing, not even those 95% that are reasonably priced". There are some mighty fine fish here, including ones that won't break the bank.

Should have been clearer: I meant fishing for difference.

It just wouldn't be the wine intertubes if there wasn't Alex posting "it's not about the classified growths" laments every couple months.

Where to start?

The 95%
I am one of those people who buy the little Bordeaux at Chambers (primarily Grolet/Peybonhomme ) as well as satellite wines like Ste Colombe (Cotes de Castillion) and lesser Medocs such Caronne Ste Gemme. But while I like these wines, I'll point out:
1) while Alex thinks Bordeaux goes with anything, I don't. Matching is personal taste, and I actually find these wines fill only a limited role at my table. I find other similarly priced wines to be much more flexible, and so my purchases are limited a bit.
2) Even wines like Caronne Ste Gemme drink best with a little age, so not exactly conducive to the 99% of population who buy to drink that night.
3)the vast majority of under $20 Bordeaux available in US are poor to mediocre wines. Alex will now claim that is the fault of lazy US importers, but curiously their laziness seems to extend only to Bordeaux, as there are so many wines I like under $20 from other areas of Europe. Whatever the reason, the chances of me buying an unknown Bordeaux without a specific recommendation from someone I trust are close to nil.
4) It's true that other nations import more lower end Bordeaux, my Belgian friend Marc says "crappy Bdx Sup is about all you can find in Belgium." I'll also note my worst wine buying experiences in bistros and small restaurants in France have been when I'm ordered the house Bordeaux or lower end Cote de Blaye on list. My French friends tend to feel same way. So I wonder if all the blame is actually on US importers and consumers.

The 5%
I guess I'm far less concerned with my wine coolness that Oswaldo (I'm too far from cool to even strive!) \
I like classified Bordeaux, even vertical tasting! That said, I really tend to like aged Bordeaux, classic mature claret. Which requires a commitment of both time and money. It used to be that a middle class person like me could afford to cellar lots of classified growths, including some superseconds and an occasional first. Those days are gone. The most expensive 2005 Bordeaux I bought multiples of was Lagrange (St J), and my splurge 1 or 2 bottle buys were Canon and Magdelaine. Even those look out of my league if 2009 prices hold. I've got a lot of Bordeaux to age and drink, but percentage of my cellar will keep shrinking if trends hold.

Dale,

>>>It just wouldn't be the wine intertubes if there wasn't Alex posting "it's not about the classified growths" laments every couple months.

OK, OK, I'll accept the criticism .

>>>But while I like these wines, I'll point out:
>>>1) while Alex thinks Bordeaux goes with anything, I don't.

Interesting. Could you please be more specific? What food does Bordeaux go with and what does it not go with, please? Not forgetting, of course, that "Bordeaux" is not monolithic, i.e. just one "type" of wine, as I'm sure you'll agree.

Do you often classify wines according to their role at table?

Furthermore, Dale, I never recommended Bordeaux of any category to the exclusion of any other kind of wine! I just asked for a fair shake, and for people not to be dismissive!

>>>2) Even wines like Caronne Ste Gemme drink best with a little age, so not exactly
>>>conducive to the 99% of population who buy to drink that night.

A very valid remark.

>>>3)the vast majority of under $20 Bordeaux available in US are poor to mediocre wines.
>>>Alex will now claim that is the fault of lazy US importers, but curiously their laziness
>>>seems to extend only to Bordeaux

Not just to Bordeaux, but there is indeed a special blind spot there, for sure.

>>>Whatever the reason, the chances of me buying an unknown Bordeaux without a specific
>>>recommendation from someone I trust are close to nil.

Does that caveat apply to other regions as well? I mean, why should Bordeaux be any worse that way than, let's say a Pic Saint Loup or Irrouléguy?

>>>It's true that other nations import more lower end Bordeaux, my Belgian friend Marc says
>>>"crappy Bdx Sup is about all you can find in Belgium."

Your friend lives there, but the statistics do not support his remarks.
If you'd like, I can hunt them up somewhere and share them.

>>> I'll also note my worst wine buying experiences in bistros and small restaurants in France
>>>have been when I'm ordered the house Bordeaux or lower end Cote de Blaye on list. My
>>>French friends tend to feel same way.

Well, once again, the figures do not support that with regard to French consumption. By and large, fine restaurants of Paris serve more Bordeaux than any other wine, for intance. And I readily admit that lower end Bordeaux is iffy. Why is it so hard, though, to admit that between cheap and poor wines and the great growths, that there is plenty of scope?

As for fine Bordeaux becoming out of reach for middle class people, I hear you!
If I didn't already have a cellar full of the stuff I would be very rueful indeed.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Alas, for the most part we get two categories of French wine in the Israeli market - those that are overpriced, and those that you would not buy again at any price. Sometimes unfortunately one discovers a wine that belongs to both categories simultaneously... .

>>>It's true that other nations import more lower end Bordeaux, my Belgian friend Marc says
>>>"crappy Bdx Sup is about all you can find in Belgium."

Your friend lives there, but the statistics do not support his remarks.
If you'd like, I can hunt them up somewhere and share them.

Alex, there are vast amounts of modestly priced Bordeaux here in the supermarkets but with no reliable guidance available as to which ones are worth trying. On the basis of bad experience trying the lucky dip, I only buy those which I already know from these sources.

I only know one serious wine merchant who is both good at selection and stocks a decent range of such modestly priced and good QPR clarets; he even provides frequent opportunity to taste them . All the other good wine choosers seem largely to steer clear of BX whilst having great QPR selections of Loire, Rhône, etc. and most serious wine lovers seem happy with this situation. There are also, of course, wine merchants who cater for those well heeled enough to go for the top 5%.

It is true that the Bordeaux label still enjoys a residual prestige amongst the less wine aware part of the population and these people, no doubt, make up the bulk of its purchasers in the supermarkets.

Dale said:

'll also note my worst wine buying experiences in bistros and small restaurants in France have been when I'm ordered the house Bordeaux or lower end Cote de Blaye on list.

In my limited travels in both France and Italy, the house wine has never disappointed. You have a more experienced and educated palate, and probably far more travel time in Europe, but I'm surprised that you have run into so many chefs willing to serve bad wine.

In my limited travels in both France and Italy, the house wine has never disappointed..

Maybe you have low expectations?

Or you go to very high-end restaurants where the "house" wine is quite good.

Interesting. Could you please be more specific? What food does Bordeaux go with and what does it not go with, please? Not forgetting, of course, that "Bordeaux" is not monolithic, i.e. just one "type" of wine, as I'm sure you'll agree.
Do you often classify wines according to their role at table?

I'm not sure I classify wines by their role at the table, but I certainly buy and consume wines primarily on that basis. From a food matching standpoint, not sure there is such an array of styles In the under $20 market, they all tend towards midweight Merlot/CS blend (discussion here is mostly re reds, but can talk about whites if you want). Good matches with not so rare meat, sturdy dishes. Some bigger satellites can stand up to rare beef or lamb. OK with roast chicken (but then so are most reds). Poor match in my opinion with most Asian dishes, most dishes with tomatoes, most dishes that are spice dominated, any dish that is hot(in spice sense). Eliminates a large portion of my meals (while in my opinion Pinot Noirs, lighter Nebbiolos and Syrahs, Loire Cab Franc, Sangiovese, etc are more versatile. This applies to Merlot/Cab Sauvignon from elsewhere, too.

>>>Whatever the reason, the chances of me buying an unknown Bordeaux without a specific
>>>recommendation from someone I trust are close to nil.
Does that caveat apply to other regions as well? I mean, why should Bordeaux be any worse that way than, let's say a Pic Saint Loup or Irrouléguy?

Well, those are more appellations than regions, and while they certainly probably produce plenty of inferior wines, it's the oceans of Bdx plonk that IS sold in US that has damaged the "brand" in the eyes of winegeeks. If there was a lot of bad Irouleguy on the shelves I'd maybe feel differently.
A better comparison might be Cotes du Rhone, where there is a lot around, but one has a better shot at a decent wine at $8-10 in US randomly choosing than a $12-14 Bordeaux. Not that I try to randomly choose CdR.

Your friend lives there, but the statistics do not support his remarks.
If you'd like, I can hunt them up somewhere and share them.

Actually my friend now lives here, but the point is his perception is that most non-classified Bordeaux on shelves is plonk (as Tim's comment reflects)

Well, once again, the figures do not support that with regard to French consumption. By and large, fine restaurants of Paris serve more Bordeaux than any other wine, for intance. And I readily admit that lower end Bordeaux is iffy. Why is it so hard, though, to admit that between cheap and poor wines and the great growths, that there is plenty of scope?

I'm just pointing to my experiences (and it seems to mirror the opinions of most of my French friends). Do the "fine restaurants of Paris " serving mostly Bordeaux serve mostly Bdx AC, Bdx Sup, Cotes de Blaye, etc? Does having a fine restaurant serve a wine make it good?

As happens every time you do this troll, I'll point out I have never said there are no good less expensive Bordeaux, and have pointed out time and time again that I buy some. But my point (again, and again) is that the poor perception among wine geeks of the less expensive Bdx is the fault of a system that puts out so much plonk. It's not the fault of the consumer (or importer).

Where are the names wines selling briskly? I keep hearing that, but then I also hear that the first tranches were minuscule. I also hear (from actual humans ITB trying to sell the wines) that the '09s are not selling through to the consumer in the USA. So is China actually snapping up the wine?

As for the reaction against Bordeaux being based on the top 5% of the wines - that's what is in the market outside of France. Bordeaux needs some aggressive person with a passion for the wines to seek out the best of the un/under-represented wines & actively get them into the markets. Without that the 95% of Bordeaux will remain irrelevant. It's hardly the consumer's/press' fault, as those who sell the wines from Bordeaux push this image & leave the great majority of the wines (good and bad) stuck in the mud.

Physician, heal thyself.

I am lucky enough to live in the SF Bay region. There are Bordeaux directly imported by K&L Wines in the sub $20 price range that I would frankly rather drink than many more expensive Napa Cabernets.

[James Roscoe]

Just 75%?

Just 75%?

I still like some Napa Cab. Mea Culpa.

[James Roscoe]

Some equals 25%?

Rahsaan said:

Maybe you have low expectations?

Probably, but in such circumstances I always judge the wine as a component of the meal. I frequently ask the server to suggest food choices, and part of the server's knowledge at that point is that I'll be drinking the house wine. So I'm really looking for a good pairing, and have not been disappointed.

and:

Or you go to very high-end restaurants where the "house" wine is quite good.

I have never had the house wine at a higher-end place in Europe. We have done a combination of by-the -glass and bottles off wine lists in the small number of high-end restaurants we've been to.

In BC, there is NO Bordeaux available that isn't overpriced! I dare you to prove otherwise!

I love Bordeaux, but don't buy it for two reasons: first, the price increases over the last 10-15 years have been insane; second, and in a related manner, I have become angry at the whole process, but primarily the Bordelais, and no longer wish to support this corrupt system by buying their product. The same thing goes for Californian wines here in BC. There are lots of other wines avialble now, thank goodness, though I admit a part of me still wishes I could buy good Bordeaux or CA cab for a decent price.

And as others have noted, the major chateaux may only be 5% of the producers, but when about 75% of the producers in the region produce plonk that you can buy for 2-5 Euros in European supermarkets, I think there is a serious problem. I suppose you could say the same thing about many other wine regions, but again, perhaps that says something about the weird 'fine wine' market and how it has changed/distorted the whole regional and global wine markets. The top producers in any wine region 'define' that region, for good or bad. In Bordeaux, it's definitely 'bad' (at least for me).

3)the vast majority of under $20 Bordeaux available in US are poor to mediocre wines. Alex will now claim that is the fault of lazy US importers, but curiously their laziness seems to extend only to Bordeaux, as there are so many wines I like under $20 from other areas of Europe. Whatever the reason, the chances of me buying an unknown Bordeaux without a specific recommendation from someone I trust are close to nil.

Alas, for the most part we get two categories of French wine in the Israeli market - those that are overpriced, and those that you would not buy again at any price. Sometimes unfortunately one discovers a wine that belongs to both categories simultaneously... .

Change "French Wine" to "Bordeaux" and "Israeli" to "American

I'm a very middle of the road wine buyer. I'm of modest means and am still a novice in the world of finer wine, but the above definitely ring true in my experience to this point. Leaving aside the rest of the world, I've had no trouble finding delicious wine from the other Appellations that are very reasonably priced but I have gotten unholy burned when trying to buy any Bordeaux under $50. The Bordeaux wines I've encountered have been terrible or beyond my price range. It's strange that this one area has been so extreme. I will confess I've not scoured every option that's out there but getting burned a few times makes wanting to do the research less likely.

Anecdotally, Weygandt's where I shop frequently doesn't even carry Bordeaux (well they have one) because they've said there is no value there at all.

Someone above mentioned the time and money commitment, which is important for drinkers such as myself that don't have the funds or the time to wait for a fine bottle to come to fruition.

I am willing to accept that somewhere out there there is good, inexpensive bordeaux. However, it does not seem to exist in the wine stores I regularly shop. And I honestly do not care whose fault that is because that doesn't really matter to me. What does matter to me is that there is lots of other good red wine easily available to me at reasonable prices. If the makers of bordeaux want to compete, great, but I am not prepared to gamble with my money under current conditions nor will I invest in wine that I can't drink for years only to risk disappointment when I finally open it. So granting the existance of good inexpensive bordeaux, it really has no bearing on my wine life.

Glenn

Tim,

You wrote:
"All the other good wine choosers seem largely to steer clear of BX whilst having great QPR selections of Loire, Rhône, etc. and most serious wine lovers seem happy with this situation".

OK, only fuckwits buy Bordeaux in Belgium (which imports, last time I looked, more Bordeaux than the United States).
Gotcha.
I think…

Dale,

Wine and food: I see what you mean. I wouldn't want to serve a good Bordeaux with the dishes you named either. It is too subtle for very spicy food.

You wrote:
" it's the oceans of Bdx plonk that IS sold in US that has damaged the "brand" in the eyes of winegeeks".

In fact, Dale, the US does not bring in oceans of low-priced Bordeaux as you suggest.
Just the opposite.
The US wants name wines in good vintages and snubs the rest.
The value per bottle is higher than anywhere else.
The selection of Bordeaux outside the great growths is pretty limited in the US, which was the subject of my post. I blame it on a lazy and unadventurous wine trade. You think its because of quality. Let us agree to disagree on that.
Gosh, it would be a treat to go with you to a wine store or hypermarket here, to buy a few bottles, and taste them!
At the very cheapest end, I think you are probably right, Côtes du Rhône is a better bet than Bordeaux. But once you move even a little up the scale, the story changes…

Your French friends can't be very wine savvy from what you say… It would be much more to the point to look at serious surveys made of French consumers, whose opinion is diametrically opposed to theirs.

Last but, not least, you once again draw the wrong conclusion about the poor selection of Bordeaux. It is not about quality. If you show up here once day, I prove it to you.

Best regards,
Alex R.

[James Roscoe]

It is time to chime in. I happen to mostly agree with Alex here. If you live in the DC area and can't get good Bordeaux for under $30 or even $20 you are looking in the wrong places or are looking for vintage Krug taste in a NV Heidsek bottle. Calvert-Woodley and McArthurs in DC, Corridor, the Wine Cellar, Iron Bridge, Rip's and the Wine Source in Maryland have all provided me with good sources of inexpensive red Bordeaux of good quality. Of course I usually go to a tasting first. Be selective, get on mailing lists, and trust your stores. Finally don't look for top-of-the-line in your qpr wines. My cellar has at least 40 nice qpr Bordeaux waiting to prove me wrong.

Some equals 25%?

Well...not necessarily. 25% of the labels out there, maybe....? But then, on the one hand I have bought more of the 25% labels...on the other hand, I was still trying new labels. So...ignore the number. I will amend my post to say "many" Napa Cabs.

"All the other good wine choosers seem largely to steer clear of BX whilst having great QPR selections of Loire, Rhône, etc. and most serious wine lovers seem happy with this situation".

OK, only fuckwits buy Bordeaux in Belgium (which imports, last time I looked, more Bordeaux than the United States).
Gotcha.
I think…

Alex, one of the reasons your trolls irritate those of us (interested in Bordeaux in general) who respond is your tendency to be dismissive and sarcastic of all of the responses that don't say what you want them to. Tim (probably the greatest proponent of inexpensive claret of the regular posters of this board) offered some perceptive comments (especially "It is true that the Bordeaux label still enjoys a residual prestige amongst the less wine aware part of the population and these people, no doubt, make up the bulk of its purchasers in the supermarkets") and gets sarcasm in return. Classy.

too subtle for very spicy food.

As someone who drinks a rather large variety of wines, I don't personally find subtlety an especial characteristic of inexpensive Bordeaux, your opinion obviously differs

In fact, Dale, the US does not bring in oceans of low-priced Bordeaux as you suggest.

OK, seas of plonk. Certainly in good wine shops there isn't generally a lot of iffy stuff. But if you go to the liquor stores and grocery stores that sell the vast majority of wine in the US, the selection will generally consist of Mouton Cadet, maybe a B&G Medoc, a few inexpensive Medoc petit chateaux or satellites (if you're lucky they might have Greysac or Larose Trintaudon) of variable quantity, one no name St Emilion, one or two overpriced classified wines (dusty and cooked most likely). The odds are definitely stacked against you.

Your French friends can't be very wine savvy from what you say… It would be much more to the point to look at serious surveys made of French consumers, whose opinion is diametrically opposed to theirs.

Well, maybe not if your definition of "wine savvy" is "believes always that Bordeaux is the best."
But I'd posit my French friends are far more wine knowledgeable (and less provincial) that the average French (or US) consumer, all having lived internationally (and most having lived in more than one region of France).

I like Bordeaux. I don't deny that there are good quality lower end wines- I've probably posted more positive notes here on wines from the right bank satellite appellations than anyone else. As I've stated repeatedly, I buy Bordeaux from $11 up (just picked up a case of 06 Ch. de Sales at $18.xx/bottle today). But I find the whining blaming the consumer and the trade, yet never the Bordelais, irritating. However, it is good to know that I needn't worry about the stories of the troubles of the low end producers in Bordeaux, with all of those studies about the Belgian and French markets they must be buying it all up!

cheers