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WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

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WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Bill Buitenhuys » Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:12 am

2000 Numanthia-Termes Termes (Toro)
$24. A Jorge Ordoñez wine imported by MRR Traders/Somerville, MA. 14.5%abv.
Black cherry Coke blended with a tablespoon of vanilla extract and a melted milk chocolate bar. It’s big. It’s gobby. It’s extremely rich and flavorful. It’s tannic. I’ll save the other bottle I have for Joe.

2001 Château La Roque Cupa Numismae Pic Saint Loup (Côteaux du Languedoc)
$20. Imp: KLWM 13.5% abv.
This is very good. Spiced plums and barnyard dirt are the predominant features accompanied by well balanced tannins and acidity with a spicy finish. Works with rosemary/thyme pork tenderloin.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Saina » Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:54 pm

You're very brave in tasting the Numathia. I break into a cold sweat when I'm told that it might be in a line-up of wines I'm to taste. I bow before thy courage sir knight. My note of the 00 is similar. Except that I only wrote three words: essence of spoof.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Bill Buitenhuys » Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:36 pm

You're very brave in tasting the Numathia
Lill and I had a whole bottle to ourselves. :shock: We each had a glass and the rest went into a wine / mushroom sauce for the pork tenderloin the next night.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Saina » Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:57 pm

Bill Buitenhuys wrote:
You're very brave in tasting the Numathia
Lill and I had a whole bottle to ourselves. :shock: We each had a glass and the rest went into a wine / mushroom sauce for the pork tenderloin the next night.


Hmmmm. Yes, I suppose port wine sauce will go well with pork tenderloin & mushrooms. ;)
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:57 am

Bill Buitenhuys wrote:2000 Numanthia-Termes Termes (Toro)
$24. A Jorge Ordoñez wine imported by MRR Traders/Somerville, MA. 14.5%abv.
Black cherry Coke blended with a tablespoon of vanilla extract and a melted milk chocolate bar. It’s big. It’s gobby. It’s extremely rich and flavorful. It’s tannic. I’ll save the other bottle I have for Joe.

2001 Château La Roque Cupa Numismae Pic Saint Loup (Côteaux du Languedoc)
$20. Imp: KLWM 13.5% abv.
This is very good. Spiced plums and barnyard dirt are the predominant features accompanied by well balanced tannins and acidity with a spicy finish. Works with rosemary/thyme pork tenderloin.


Pic St. Loup on Wine Focus Bill (in Feb). This one is $31 Cdn in these parts.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Mark Lipton » Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:07 pm

Bill Buitenhuys wrote:2001 Château La Roque Cupa Numismae Pic Saint Loup (Côteaux du Languedoc)
$20. Imp: KLWM 13.5% abv.
This is very good. Spiced plums and barnyard dirt are the predominant features accompanied by well balanced tannins and acidity with a spicy finish. Works with rosemary/thyme pork tenderloin.


Thanks, Bill. I was just looking at this wine in my database last night, trying to decide what I'll serve with cassoulet next Sat. Although I like a certain amount of tannins to offset the fats in cassoulet, I figured that this wine isn't quite ready for Prime Time yet. What do you think?

On a related note, I checked the pairing recs in Hugh Johnson's Wine Guide and found that they suggest Languedoc, Cru Beaujolais (!) or Rioja (!!). [What, no Madiran?] Consequently, I'm pulling an '04 Brun VV and a '90 La Rioja Alta 904 in addition to a yet-to-be-decided Languedoc red. Results to be presented later.

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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by David M. Bueker » Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:32 pm

Bill Buitenhuys wrote:2000 Numanthia-Termes Termes (Toro)
$24. A Jorge Ordoñez wine imported by MRR Traders/Somerville, MA. 14.5%abv.
Black cherry Coke blended with a tablespoon of vanilla extract and a melted milk chocolate bar. It’s big. It’s gobby. It’s extremely rich and flavorful. It’s tannic. I’ll save the other bottle I have for Joe.


Are you trying to kill young Mr. Perry? Did Amy put a "contract" on him to get him to give up wine?
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Bill Buitenhuys » Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:39 pm

What do you think?
Last August when I had this, it was very accessable, Mark. Ya, it could easily develop more over the next few years but you arent baby killing if you opened it now.

'04 Brun VV and a '90 La Rioja Alta 904
I haven't had the '04 Brun VV for a while (too hard to hold on to!) and from what I've been reading it's in a pretty yummy state right now. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the maturity of the 904.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Mark Lipton » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:08 pm

Bill Buitenhuys wrote:
'04 Brun VV and a '90 La Rioja Alta 904
I haven't had the '04 Brun VV for a while (too hard to hold on to!) and from what I've been reading it's in a pretty yummy state right now. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the maturity of the 904.


Thanks for the data, Bill. I'm still waffling on the 904 because, deep down, I remain highly skeptical of the match with cassoulet (and I fairly frequently make paellas, some of which are meat-centric enough to match well with Rioja IMO). I may very well make a last minute substitution of a '98 Penfolds St. Henri that I've been meaning to open for a while now.

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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Victor de la Serna » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:15 pm

Otto Nieminen wrote:You're very brave in tasting the Numathia. (...) essence of spoof.

He wasn't tasting Numanthis but Termes - the winery's third wine, basically available in the US only.

And, as usual, you have no clue about which wines are spoofed or not, Otto. You should travel to the south (not necessarily the Bekaa Valley) more often and see for yourself.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Saina » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:29 pm

Victor de la Serna wrote:And, as usual, you have no clue about which wines are spoofed or not, Otto. You should travel to the south (not necessarily the Bekaa Valley) more often and see for yourself.


Thanks for an eloquent reply. Maybe I don't have a clue: but wines (like this one did to me) that smell of vanilla and over-ripeness and naught but oak I thought were spoofy. So maybe I use spoofy in a slightly different semantic field than you do? Or maybe I just need to stay away from warm regions since I seem to be unable to understand them (Musar excepted - not the whole of Biqa-valley)?
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Saina » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:32 pm

Victor de la Serna wrote:
Otto Nieminen wrote:You're very brave in tasting the Numathia. (...) essence of spoof.

He wasn't tasting Numanthis but Termes - the winery's third wine, basically available in the US only.


Reply part II: Yes, but I thought the producer was referred to as Numanthia? Sorry if I got that wrong. But I was commenting on just this wine that was brought by an acquaintace from ... yup! you guessed: the States.

-O-
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by David M. Bueker » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:25 pm

Victor de la Serna wrote:
Otto Nieminen wrote:You're very brave in tasting the Numathia. (...) essence of spoof.

He wasn't tasting Numanthis but Termes - the winery's third wine, basically available in the US only.

And, as usual, you have no clue about which wines are spoofed or not, Otto. You should travel to the south (not necessarily the Bekaa Valley) more often and see for yourself.


You know what Victor - read Bill's note. Even the Termes is ink black, overoaked jelly wine. (I've had the same wine with the same impressions.) You do like defending the new wave of Spanish wines, and this is in its way admirable, but to many folks they are just awful stuff. Deal with it.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Bob Henrick » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:44 pm

Bill Buitenhuys wrote: Lill and I had a whole bottle to ourselves. :shock: We each had a glass and the rest went into a wine / mushroom sauce for the pork tenderloin the next night.


Bill, I have been buying whole pork loins (bone in) halves to cut into roast for cooking on my ceramic grill. They are terrific cooked over hardwood charcoal, with a chunk or two of apple wood that has been soaked in water. The plus to the whole loin is that I get the pork tenderloin attached and for the same $1.36 lb as the loin. So, I have about 5 of them tenders waiting for cooking, and that wine and mushroom sauce sure sounds good. Would you care to divulge?
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Bill Buitenhuys » Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:39 pm

Would you care to divulge?
I sure would Bob, but I have no idea what I cooked for a sauce that night back in August :lol: I probably rehydrated some wild mushrooms and used the strained mushroom water with the leftover wine.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Victor de la Serna » Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:49 am

David M. Bueker wrote:to many folks they are just awful stuff. Deal with it.

I am dealing with it - I am in disagreement with that type of criticism in the case of a number of wines (not all, of course), including Termes, and I am expressing that disagreement in explicit terms. In my part of the world, that way of "dealing with it" is called free speech. I guess you'll have to deal with it.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by David M. Bueker » Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:55 am

Victor de la Serna wrote:
David M. Bueker wrote:to many folks they are just awful stuff. Deal with it.

I am dealing with it - I am in disagreement with that type of criticism in the case of a number of wines (not all, of course), including Termes, and I am expressing that disagreement in explicit terms. In my part of the world, that way of "dealing with it" is called free speech. I guess you'll have to deal with it.


Post a tasting note once in a while Victor. Then your thoughts on spoofed or not might carry more weight. Your rep as an apologist for overextracted and overoaked wine preceeds you.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Saina » Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:03 pm

Victor de la Serna wrote:I am dealing with it - I am in disagreement with that type of criticism in the case of a number of wines (not all, of course), including Termes, and I am expressing that disagreement in explicit terms. In my part of the world, that way of "dealing with it" is called free speech. I guess you'll have to deal with it.


I have no trouble with you disagreeing with what I wrote. What I do find troublesome was the way you expressed your disagreement. I thought it was plain rude and I'll admit I was offended. Maybe you didn't mean for the tone of your reply to be rude, but that's how I perceived it. I hope you'll forgive me being oversensitive if the rudeness was unintended - I am sure most of us have in this media sometimes put down a word or two that have been misunderstood. But there have been several recent replies to my posts where you imply that I know pretty much nothing about wine or pairing it with food. You may well be right: I am very much a newbie when it comes to wine and certainly have much less experience with it than anyone else here (even with Musar, I'm sure). I think I've been pretty open about being young and therefore not having the experience that others here may have. So informing me if I'm going on the wrong tracks with my reasoning is welcome, but flatly stating that I'm totally wrong and not bothering to say why and saying all of this with such a haughty tone I find unwelcome.

Rather than just insulting in such a manner, why don't you tell me why I was wrong in saying the wine was spoofy? It certainly smelled and tasted spoofy to me! You may disagree profoundly with my tastes in wine - I understand that I have rather odd tastes and that therefore most will disagree with them - but could you at least respect them?

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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:18 pm

Bill Buitenhuys wrote:
Would you care to divulge?
I sure would Bob, but I have no idea what I cooked for a sauce that night back in August :lol: I probably rehydrated some wild mushrooms and used the strained mushroom water with the leftover wine.


As long as you did not put the strained water in the wine William!!!!
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Victor de la Serna » Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:04 am

David M. Bueker wrote:Your rep as an apologist for overextracted and overoaked wine preceeds you.

You don't say! :idea:
See, the proof is only in the pudding. As it turns out, I'm one of the very few members of this cast of pudding tasters who actually makes pudding. So go ahead, taste it and decide. It's on the market for everyone to try it and freely chastise it if they so wish. That's my true rep - not hearsay.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Victor de la Serna » Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:39 am

Otto Nieminen wrote:informing me if I'm going on the wrong tracks with my reasoning is welcome, but flatly stating that I'm totally wrong and not bothering to say why and saying all of this with such a haughty tone I find unwelcome

Let's see. If I sound irked with your use of the term 'spoofed' it is because we have already had this discussion, you and I, on another board, and you keep insisting on applying it to wines that have actually not been 'spoofulated', as the term coined on that board goes. And it gets tiresome. But I'll give it one more try.

A 'spoofed' wine is a wine with a heavy dose of mascara applied to it so as to make it look, smell and taste differently from what it really is. The mascara may be called reverse osmosis, flavoring agents, sugar, overextraction - what have you. Of course there can be different sensitivities as to where the border between good winemaking and spoofulation lies. Many traditionalist critics in Europe would, for example, accept micro-oxygenation, a procedure to mollify harsh tannins by instilling tiny air bubbles into fermenting wine developed by ultra-traditionalist Madiran vinegrower and winemaker Patrick Ducournau, who has to cope with the harsh tannat, because this procedure does nothing that other accepted ones (like long aging in old oak) don't do. The same critics, however, would reject reverse osmosis because it intrinsically changes the nature of the wine. Or not: these are subjects that are open to discussion.

The presence of new oak is probably the most debated question in the field of spoofulation. Some reject new oak outright as if it were an unholy addition. This means that they reject 90% of the world's greatest red wines, which are made using some percentage (often high) of new oak. Others accept it as an excellent tool to age, well, ageworthy wines, adding to their complexity without submerging the character given to them by the fruit and the terroir. Often in a great wine, the oak remains too prominent over its first few years (taste a young Château Margaux and you'll see), but if the wine is good enough a great balance will ultimately be reached.

Many lesser wines, with no structure or density or character to ever overcome significant doses of new oak, do get lavish portions of new oak aging by their producers: this is spoofulation indeed, and it's practiced in many places, Spain not being the least important of them. Since I'm a journalist who is constantly publishing in mainstream media and not just on internet fora, plus I'm a producer myself, there's ample record of what my opinions and my criticism on this subject are - whatever the misinformed Mr. Bueker may think - and they are crystal-clear and extremely severe about spoofers.

However, Otto, when you take on a wine like Termes you are, once again, hitting the wrong windmills, like a shortsighted Don Quixote. This is an entry-level wine with zero percent new oak (it gets old barrels from Numanthia, Termanthia, Sierra Cantabria and San Vicente) and its exuberance is not the product of some expensive witchcraft in the cellar by some enraged disciple of Michel Rolland's, but the reflection of a particularly hot, sunbaked, generous region called Toro and the deep-colored, dense tinta de Toro grapes. This is a region where the thermometer reaches 40ºC on dozens of days in July and August - one of the hottest wine-producing regions in the world. So if you want to be true to the region and its grapes, you harvest them at phenolic maturity and you make a wine like Termes.

You don't like these wines? Por instance - you prefer the less fleshy, more austere, more delicate reds from the rain-soaked Loire which others would call desiccated and dilute? That's perfect! You vote with your wallet at the wine shop.

But if you insist on calling 'spoofed' a wine that's not spoofed, you may get a rebuke or two from anyone who knows what's been spoofed and what hasn't.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by David M. Bueker » Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:06 pm

Victor de la Serna wrote:However, Otto, when you take on a wine like Termes you are, once again, hitting the wrong windmills, like a shortsighted Don Quixote. This is an entry-level wine with zero percent new oak (it gets old barrels from Numanthia, Termanthia, Sierra Cantabria and San Vicente) and its exuberance is not the product of some expensive witchcraft in the cellar by some enraged disciple of Michel Rolland's, but the reflection of a particularly hot, sunbaked, generous region called Toro and the deep-colored, dense tinta de Toro grapes. This is a region where the thermometer reaches 40ºC on dozens of days in July and August - one of the hottest wine-producing regions in the world. So if you want to be true to the region and its grapes, you harvest them at phenolic maturity and you make a wine like Termes.


I guess Toro is a poor place to plant grapes...
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Robin Garr » Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:40 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:I guess Toro is a poor place to plant grapes...


:lol:

Victor, if you're looking on - and without meaning to torment you in any way - would you say that your position is the flip side of Paul B's frequent argument that weedy Marechal Foch from Ontario, with its signature "charred buckwheat" character, is a splendid wine because it, too, is well suited for the climate it's grown in?

Or could it be reasonably argued that both Toro and the Niagara Peninsula offer us evidence that growing grapes for great wines should really be reserved for more temperate regions?
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Victor de la Serna » Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:54 pm

Toro is a great wine region - and the Niagara peninsula too, if you consider ice wines, of course. Not all wines should taste alike. Termes is a simple, entry-level, powerful wine that gives you the fruit and immediate taste of the region, and is good with barbecue and other powerful foods. Termes is not a bad wine by any stretch of the imagination. Another thing is whether you like powerful reds or not. But then if you go to the top-of-the-line Toro wines, with their varying styles, you will find a number of really remarkable ones. Get a few experienced, unbiased tasters and have them taste, say, the 2004s by San Román, Pintia, Numanthia (and Termanthia), Quinta Quietud, Villaester, Pago La Jara, Bienvenida Sitio del Palo and Elías Mora. And then have them reply to Mr. Bueker's wonderful statement, "Toro is a poor place to plant grapes".

I guess jokey replies evidence a lack of solid argumentation...
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