2 year aging experiment- anyone?

Anyone willing to join me in a rather short term (at least in wine cellaring terms) experiment on heat damage and aging?

I don't think we need more evidence about what happens with true abuse. I'm more interested in wines that see non-controlled storage, but not neccessarily extremes that pop out corks and lead to seepage.

My plan is to take several matched pairs of inexpensive (but short term ageable) wine. I'll put one bottle of each in a back corner of my kitchen atop a cabinet. Others in cellar in a "don't touch" box.. We tend to keep our house very cool (58 at night, 65 in day) in winter, but sure kitchen is warmer at times. And it does get warm in summer. We don't have central air, but there is a window AC in room next to kitchen. Our 116 year old frame house is cooler on ground floor, but sure that temps average 80 in summer. We try not to use the oven much in summer. I'm hoping that these temps aren't enough to pop out corks. I'm trying to recreate maybe situations where bottles sit on shelves in stores don't run AC at night, etc.

I'll revisit in 2 years if I can hold out. Serve all pairs at a dinner in early 2010. Anyone else game?

Obviously this isn't a great controlled experiment. We all experience bottle variation, and sample is too small. I'll serve wines blind to overcome my observational bias (I do believe that these storage differences will cause noticable changes). But a little data is better than none.

You once referred me to the excellent article How Temperature Affects the Aging of Wine in http://www.wineperspective.com. That pretty much settled the issue for me.

I've been getting so much bottle variation lately that I'd be unsure if the differences were due to the aging conditions or bottle variation.

Having said all that, if you don't find more temperature compatible experiment partners (temperatures in São Paulo are obviously quite different), I'd be happy to join you.

[Robin Garr]

Great plan, Dale! Let us know what specific wine(s) you decide on, and I'll try to grab a couple of the same to put in passive storage for the same period. (Site: 95-year-old urban frame dwelling in the Ohio Valley's "distinct four season climate," air-conditioned summers but often rising to the lower 80s.)

Anyone willing to join me in a rather short term (at least in wine cellaring terms) experiment on heat damage and aging?

I'm game, Dale. Should we make it the same wine? I know -- let's make it the '99 Monte Bello! Maybe a very low level Bordeaux or something like a Brun L'Ancien?

Mark Lipton

Oswaldo,
I too am pretty convinced. But several people here don't seem to be. And the Pandell article explains what he views as the process, but doesn't actually have any data. So a little experiment - admittedly way too small, but let's see if my prejudices are confirmed.

Two of the wines I was planning on were the '05 I Greppi Greppicante that I tried last night, and the 2004 Picque-Caillou (Graves). But I could use the '06 Brun L'Ancien instead (I only have 1 or 2 left of the '05, and don't want to waste one). Another thought- how about the '05 La Vieille Ferme rouge as an option that's bottled in screwcap? Might be interesting to see if closure makes a difference.

[Jenise]

Oswaldo,
I too am pretty convinced. But several people here don't seem to be. And the Pandell article explains what he views as the process, but doesn't actually have any data. So a little experiment - admittedly way too small, but let's see if my prejudices are confirmed.

Two of the wines I was planning on were the '05 I Greppi Greppicante that I tried last night, and the 2004 Picque-Caillou (Graves). But I could use the '06 Brun L'Ancien instead (I only have 1 or 2 left of the '05, and don't want to waste one). Another thought- how about the '05 La Vieille Ferme rouge as an option that's bottled in screwcap? Might be interesting to see if closure makes a difference.

I'll play. No air conditioning at all here save the Puget Sound and open sliding doors. In winter we keep our house similar to yours, in summer the inside of our home rarely rises above 75. I have a cellar, and I have several areas that are warmed every day by sunlight to around 75 in summer. I have the 04 Pique Caillou too, six bottles, but something like La Vielle Ferme would be a wine almost anyone could get anywhere.

Dale-

Let me help you get a preview of your experiment.

I currently have a screwtop bottle of '03 Vielle Ferme that has been sitting in my often hot kitchen for two years. It's yours if you want to try to find a bottle that has been well stored to compare it with.

Rest assured, it's one of only three bottles that I've abused in this way.

Matt

Dale-

Let me help you get a preview of your experiment.

I currently have a screwtop bottle of '03 Vielle Ferme that has been sitting in my often hot kitchen for two years. It's yours if you want to try to find a bottle that has been well stored to compare it with.

Rest assured, it's one of only three bottles that I've abused in this way.

Matt

I've had a 3 litre box of La Vieille Ferme rouge hanging above my range for about 6 months.

I currently have a screwtop bottle of '03 Vielle Ferme that has been sitting in my often hot kitchen for two years. It's yours if you want to try to find a bottle that has been well stored to compare it with.

Matt......er....thanks. The problem is of course the well-stored bottle, most responsible retailers blew those out 18 months ago.

I'll pass, but you and Kristin (and Zeke) are welcome to join us in 2010 for blind tasting of the paired cellared and non-cellared Brun, Picque Caillou, and LVF. But, I promise you, they will not be the main dinner wines.

Everyone, it'll be fun if we have some of same wines. But it will also be (anecdotally) informative if we have a variety- if screwcapped wines fare better or worse, or if certain varieties or styles do better. And we'll have a variety of conditions- Jenise's PNW will be cooler than my NY location. I was thinking I might move my bottles out when we clean oven in warmer months- one time temps might approach 100.

I'm doing the '04 Picque Caillou, the '06 Brun L'Ancien, the '05 La Vieille Ferme (rouge). But any wine that anyone wants to try a pair of is welcome.

PS We should keep open minds. About 1999 (pre-Betsy) I dated someone who proudly pulled a bottle of 1989 Gruaud-Larose they had been storing for years for "someone who would appreciate it" from cabinet over stove. I grimaced. Turned out it was great, if young.

I've been living this experiment for the past 12 years! I keep my wine in a small room in our non-temperature-controlled basement. It ranges from 55 degrees in the winter to roughly 75 degrees in these miserably hot and humid D.C. summers. Our house has central AC, but it's not vented in the basement; still, the natural tendency of cool air to sink keeps it in the 70s. My problem is I have no control group to compare my bottles to.

Still, I would say that for ageworthy wines, 10 years seems to be fine. For example, last month I opened a 1995 Chateau d'Agassac Haut-Medoc -- a simple cru bourgeois -- that had spent 10 years in our cellar and I thought it was terrific, harmonious and mature but nowhere near over the hill. I suspect 20 years might be too much for aging most bottles under these conditions, though I don't know yet -- haven't lived here long enough and I rarely buy wines that require that long to reach maturity, anyway.

PS We should keep open minds. About 1999 (pre-Betsy) I dated someone who proudly pulled a bottle of 1989 Gruaud-Larose they had been storing for years for "someone who would appreciate it" from cabinet over stove. I grimaced. Turned out it was great, if young.

But this, I think, is why paired wines (of identical provenance, I should add) are so important for this study. G-L is a very sturdy wine, and a slightly impaired G-L might be hard to detect in the absence of a control group. Bottle variation being what it is, of course, a pair is still no guarantee but it's better than nothing. I'm going to search my supplies tonight to see what I'll use. I'll probably pick up some of the Vieille Ferme too.

Mark Lipton

I've been living this experiment for the past 12 years! I keep my wine in a small room in our non-temperature-controlled basement. It ranges from 55 degrees in the winter to roughly 75 degrees in these miserably hot and humid D.C. summers. Our house has central AC, but it's not vented in the basement; still, the natural tendency of cool air to sink keeps it in the 70s. My problem is I have no control group to compare my bottles to.

That sounds to me like a slightly different experiment, Bruce. There's no question (I hope) that wine ages faster at elevated temperature. There's also a widespread belief that rapid changes in cellar temperature harm wine, but that's not (I think) what Dale's proposing to test. That's another belief that should probably be tested, though, but it'll take some thought to come up with a way to vary temperature widely without elevating temperature above 80°F. What Dale is proposing, if I have it right, is to see whether exposure to high (>80°F) temperature damages wine in a way that is noticeable two years on.

Mark Lipton

[David M. Bueker]

I'm game. I'll go a step farther & do a 3 part experiment (just because I can easily do it).

Bottle #1: 55 degree cellar
Bottle #2: Upstairs which goes into mid/upper '70s in summer, but stays around 58 all winter long
Bottle #3: In basement which goes to 68-70 degrees in summer, and hovers around 54 in winter

I will do it with a red and two whites, one in cork and one in screw cap. Wines TBD soon.

I`m game. Think La V. Ferme is good for me!
Do we all have to do the same wine though?

[David M. Bueker]

Do we all have to do the same wine though?

Nope, but we should do wines that have some expectations of holding and/or improving over a short term period. I'm looking at a Cru Bourgeois, a German Riesling and a village Burg. The other thing we should all do is taste these wines in the next month or so to estalish a baseline. We'll need an easy to search tag line for all the original notes so we can gather them up in 2 years.

How about WTN: WLDG AE (for aging experiment) then the wine name?

[Robin Garr]

How about WTN: WLDG AE (for aging experiment) then the wine name?

A tech issue: two-letter terms aren't searchable. Maybe "WTN Aging"?

[David M. Bueker]

How about WTN: WLDG AE (for aging experiment) then the wine name?

A tech issue: two-letter terms aren't searchable. Maybe "WTN Aging"?

But can't we search for the whole WLDG AE and get something?

The two letter terms not being searchable brings up an issue I had not thought of: people frequently put 01, 02, 99, etc. for years. This makes it impossible to do many vintage searches. Combine that with the very short field for thread titles (shorter than every other wine forum on the net) and it's not very user friendly.

[Robin Garr]

The two letter terms not being searchable brings up an issue I had not thought of: people frequently put 01, 02, 99, etc. for years. This makes it impossible to do many vintage searches. Combine that with the very short field for thread titles (shorter than every other wine forum on the net) and it's not very user friendly.

The two-letter search is probably non-negotiable because of indexing issues, David. The subject length MAY be tweakable, though, within reason. Let me dig into that. (Subject length isn't really a search issue, though, since searches also examine message bodies. Still, let's see if it's easy to modify.)

One further clarification regarding this experiment: presumably what's being looked for here is the effect of subtle heat damage on a wine. Dale has chosen two years as the time window for examination, but should we establish a maximum (& minimum?) temperature that the "cooked" wine will be subjected to? Also, should there be a limit on the duration of exposure? IOW, is the heat-damaged wine supposed to be one that's been exposed to 85° temperatures for six months straight, or for e.g. a two week period then returned to normal cellar conditions?

Mark Lipton

[David M. Bueker]

My intent is to look at the various variations that I can see in my house. I'm not trying to run a scientifically valid experiment. My upstairs gets into the high 70s for much of the summer (I do not have central air) but is very cold in the winter. Let's see what happens. There will be a good 6-8 months of "cooking" at 75-80 degrees over the two year period.

We have a lot of people with different storage situations, and different possibilities for non-controlled conditions. My personal goal is to try and recreate what happens in a sloppy retail situation. My hope was that everyone would report what their non-cellared bottles encountered ("winter temps averaged 65, with low at night of 58, summer temps averaged 78, with a peak of 86") and what their cellar conditions were like ("constant 55", or "passive cellar with slow seasonal changes from 52 to 66"). Since this isn't a really controlled experiment, it will be interesting (though certainly nowhere near conclusive) to see what changes we can note, and any patterns we might imagine we see.

We have a lot of people with different storage situations, and different possibilities for non-controlled conditions. My personal goal is to try and recreate what happens in a sloppy retail situation. My hope was that everyone would report what their non-cellared bottles encountered ("winter temps averaged 65, with low at night of 58, summer temps averaged 78, with a peak of 86") and what their cellar conditions were like ("constant 55", or "passive cellar with slow seasonal changes from 52 to 66"). Since this isn't a really controlled experiment, it will be interesting (though certainly nowhere near conclusive) to see what changes we can note, and any patterns we might imagine we see.

Okie-doke. One useful tool for that kind of data collection is one that I have in my cellar, a digital thermometer that records high, low and current temperature (also humidity, but that's neither here nor there). I asked this question because I have to choose my control environment: the back porch hits over 100°F in summer, whereas the rest of the downstairs is in the mid-to-high-70s during the day. The attic would likewise be brutally hot in the hot months of the year. (The cellar, OTOH, never goes above 60°F). I might choose our bedroom on the second floor, which typically gets into the 80s during the day in the summer months, but we just got new windows installed that should keep the upstairs temperatures down.

So many factors,
Mark Lipton

[David M. Bueker]

I also have a digital thermometer that keeps track of high and low temps. I will try to at least record the excursions for posterity and argument.