Slovenia - Austria Wine Trip

The WLDG has been helpful to us a number of times, so we'd like to tap into the collective knowledge once again. We are planning a wine trip to Slovenia by way of Vienna. Tentatively, we'll begin with a few days in the South Styria area of Austria (southeast of Graz). After that, it will be onto Slovenia and the area east of Maribor known as Podravje. Then we'll go to the Brda region and adjacent Collio (Italy) to spend most of our time.

We've been spoiled by Untours the last couple of years. They provide air transportation, a nice apartment, and (usually) a car for one price. The best thing about this is not having to spend part of each day looking for a decent place to stay that night. Ideally, we'd like to set up something just like that; stay at one place in South Styria, another in Podravje, and another in Brda. It's unlikely that apartments will be available, so we're probably looking at guest houses or rooms at tourist farms. Any suggestions? Travel agencies haven't been helpful.

Suggestions about wineries to visit are welcome of course. Another thing that's come up is driving in Italy. One travel agent we told we'd be driving into Italy said to be sure to notify the car rental company at pickup (in Vienna), they might require extra insurance. Has anyone heard of this?

[Robin Garr]

One travel agent we told we'd be driving into Italy said to be sure to notify the car rental company at pickup (in Vienna), they might require extra insurance. Has anyone heard of this?

Dan, I recall something like that in reverse: The first couple of times I went to Slovenia, I arrived at either Venice Marco Polo or Friuli Venezia-Giuliana Regional Airport and was required to undergo considerable extra paperwork because I planned to cross into Slovenia, which was not then in the EU. I also remember some rigmarole a number of years ago when I picked up a rental car in Milan and dropped it in Paris. So, without fully comprehending all the details, I'd say, yes, that kind of surcharge/paperwork thing seems to happen in Europe, and it's probably worth confirming with your car rental company that your itinerary is okay with them.

Wish I could help you more with Slovenia. I've loved my visits there, but as I told you in Email a while back, I've always been there as a wine judge and had accommodations set up for me in Ljubljana, so I'm not much use in giving you details about accommodations in Brda. Based on my recollections, though, it might make some sense to stay on the Italian side, where there are plenty of modest but decent hotels all around Gorizia and Udine and Trieste, and just drive over to the wine country. Cividale in Friuli might be a great place to base for trips to both Collio and Brda, especially now that (I assume) all the border crossings are open.

I don't know a thing about Slovenian wine, but if you could find a Slovenian [oak] cooperage, or a Slovenian [oak] forest, they might be fun to visit.

I don't know a thing about Slovenian wine, but if you could find a Slovenian [oak] cooperage, or a Slovenian [oak] forest, they might be fun to visit.

Actually, Nathan, the source of oak cooperage is Slavonia, a region of Hungary, not AFAIK Slovenia. There are plenty of other reasons to visit, though.

Mark Lipton

The WLDG has been helpful to us a number of times, so we'd like to tap into the collective knowledge once again. We are planning a wine trip to Slovenia by way of Vienna. Tentatively, we'll begin with a few days in the South Styria area of Austria (southeast of Graz). After that, it will be onto Slovenia and the area east of Maribor known as Podravje. Then we'll go to the Brda region and adjacent Collio (Italy) to spend most of our time.

We've been spoiled by Untours the last couple of years. They provide air transportation, a nice apartment, and (usually) a car for one price. The best thing about this is not having to spend part of each day looking for a decent place to stay that night. Ideally, we'd like to set up something just like that; stay at one place in South Styria, another in Podravje, and another in Brda. It's unlikely that apartments will be available, so we're probably looking at guest houses or rooms at tourist farms. Any suggestions? Travel agencies haven't been helpful.

Suggestions about wineries to visit are welcome of course. Another thing that's come up is driving in Italy. One travel agent we told we'd be driving into Italy said to be sure to notify the car rental company at pickup (in Vienna), they might require extra insurance. Has anyone heard of this?

Disclaimer: I haven't been to either Slovenia or South Styria.

Wineries I like from those regions:
South Styria - E&M Tement, makers of great Sauvignon
Erwin Sabathi, also a Sauvignon producer
Brda - Movia/Vila Marija, makers of Ribolla Gialla and several "International" varieties

Mark Lipton

I don't know a thing about Slovenian wine, but if you could find a Slovenian [oak] cooperage, or a Slovenian [oak] forest, they might be fun to visit.

Actually, Nathan, the source of oak cooperage is Slavonia, a region of Hungary, not AFAIK Slovenia. There are plenty of other reasons to visit, though.

Mark Lipton

Well, it must be a widespread myth, then:

slavonian oak: about 18,600
cooperage slavonia: about 246

slovenian oak: about 95,000
cooperage slovenia: about 17,100

BTW, Wikipedia says that "Slavonia" is in Croatia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavonia

[Robin Garr]

Let's sort this out. It's not that complicated.

Well, it must be a widespread myth, then:

Not a myth but a mistake born of geographical illiteracy by many Americans. Slavonija (Slavonia) is a region in Croatia, related to the separate country of Slovenia only by a similar sounding name.

BTW, Wikipedia says that "Slavonia" is in Croatia:

Although Wikipedia is not always a reliable guide, it's right this time. Slavonian oak comes from Slavonija, a region in Croatia, which is a country to the south of Slovenia. Both countries, now independent, were part of Yugoslavia under Tito.

Point is, though, if Dan and family go looking for Slavonian oak forests in Slovenia, they're going to be out of luck.

Point is, though, if Dan and family go looking for Slavonian oak forests in Slovenia, they're going to be out of luck.

Yes, but is there no such thing as Slovenian oak?

Point is, though, if Dan and family go looking for Slavonian oak forests in Slovenia, they're going to be out of luck.

Yes, but is there no such thing as Slovenian oak?

Of course there is, but that isn't the question, Nathan. Slovenian oak cooperage for winemaking is AFAIK non-existent (but who knows? Perhaps it's a low cost alternative in Moldavia for all that I know) which is what I thought you were talking about. My bad about the location of Slavonia, though: those Slavs sure do get around!

Mark Lipton

[Robin Garr]

Yes, but is there no such thing as Slovenian oak?

I'm in little doubt that oak trees grow in Slovenia. To the best of my knowledge, though, Slovenia doesn't produce wine barrels from local oak, at least not in any significant way.

Of course it's confusing, because the names are similar, and because within living memory, when the Balkan countries and Slovenia were federated as Yugoslavia, a lot of the state-controlled wine ("Avia") was made in Slovenia, and they used a lot of Slavonian oak.

But in the context of Dan's question, a trip to the Slovenian oak forests to observe the quaint barrel makers at their work ain't likely.

Yes, but is there no such thing as Slovenian oak?

I'm in little doubt that oak trees grow in Slovenia. To the best of my knowledge, though, Slovenia doesn't produce wine barrels from local oak, at least not in any significant way.

Of course it's confusing, because the names are similar, and because within living memory, when the Balkan countries and Slovenia were federated as Yugoslavia, a lot of the state-controlled wine ("Avia") was made in Slovenia, and they used a lot of Slavonian oak.

But in the context of Dan's question, a trip to the Slovenian oak forests to observe the quaint barrel makers at their work ain't likely.

Oh, please, of course there are oak treas growing in Slovenija, around one half of the country (11,691 km²; 4,514 sq mi) is covered by forests; this makes Slovenia the third most forested country in Europe, after Finland and Sweden. So there is enough Slovenian oak for barrels, and there are quiet a few barrel cooperages, like Krajnc, Kuzma etc.

Not a myth but a mistake born of geographical illiteracy by many Americans.

Getting back to my original point, the 18,600 people who understand the oak to be Slavonian are correct, and the 95,000 who believe it to be Slovenian are mistaken?

Actually, since yesterday, the numbers have gone in divergent directions - Slavonian Oak is now down to 18,500, and Slovenian Oak is up to 95,100:

GOOGLE - slavonian oak: about 18,600 [down from 18,500 yesterday]

GOOGLE - slovenian oak: about 95,100 [up from 95,000 yesterday]

[Robin Garr]

Getting back to my original point, the 18,600 people who understand the oak to be Slavonian are correct, and the 95,000 who believe it to be Slovenian are mistaken?

That's a funny way of characterizing Google search hits, but to reiterate it - and with all respect to Tom, who lives in Slovenia and knows what he's talking about - all I can say is that Slavonian oak is a significant factor in a lot of Eastern European (and Italian) wines that we see in the US, while Slovenian oak is not. And yes, a lot of people do mix them up because the names are similar, and not terribly familiar to many Americans. <shrug>

Getting back to my original point, the 18,600 people who understand the oak to be Slavonian are correct, and the 95,000 who believe it to be Slovenian are mistaken?

Actually, since yesterday, the numbers have gone in divergent directions - Slavonian Oak is now down to 18,500, and Slovenian Oak is up to 95,100:

GOOGLE - slavonian oak: about 18,600 [down from 18,500 yesterday]

GOOGLE - slovenian oak: about 95,100 [up from 95,000 yesterday]

My understanding matches Robin's. Having visited Slovenia myself a few months ago, I can say that there are indeed oak trees there but I understand they are generally not suitable for barrel making for whatever reason. The info at http://www.fao.org/docrep/x5365e/x5365e04.htm is somewhat dated but you can see in the chart that Croatia (and Slavonia is the region of Croatia where the oak comes from) out-produces Slovenia 3:1. If you read on, you'll see they even mention the possible confusion between Slovenia and Croatia.

Americans are easy to criticize for their lack of geographic knowledge but I think a lot more than just Americans are confused on this one. Slovenia was (and is again) a country, adjacent to Italy and on the coast. Slavonia is a region imbedded in Croatia which in turn for many years, like Slovenia, was part of Yugoslavia. There are lots of people confused and that's all the Google statistics tell us, that there are more confused than un-confused people on this subject. It wouldn't be the first (and won't be the last) time.

You also mentioned before the number of hits for Slovenian cooperages. I'd point out that the cooperages generally follow their source of demand, which is the wine industry. There are a number of cooperages in Napa, for example, that make barrels out of French oak even though the French oak obviously doesn't grow there. If demand in an area justifies it, it often makes economic sense to ship the wood and build barrels locally than to ship finished barrels which take up a lot more space.

Mon Dieu! Forgive me, I forgot to ask the most important question of all. Does anyone know about oak cooperage in Slovenia, Slovakia or Transylvania?

Mon Dieu! Forgive me, I forgot to ask the most important question of all. Does anyone know about oak cooperage in Slovenia, Slovakia or Transylvania?

Don't know about the cooperages but I've done a little more Googling on the Slovenia/Slavonia "controversy" and it appears that while the "American geographical ignorance" explanation given to Robin may be a bit of a stretch. For example, check out this news letter from a UN agency at http://www.unece.org/trade/timber/docs/newsletter/tc-newsletter_05.pdf, in particular page 4 (or search on "Slovenia"). It sounds to me like wine barrels certainly have been made from Slovenian wood in the past and may still, although numbers may be limited by scarcity of raw material. And at http://www.winepros.com.au/jsp/cda/reference/oxford_entry.jsp?entry_id=2241 Jancis Robinson also mentions Slovenian oak, although in the past tense. So if this is all about confusion between two similar names, it's not all a problem of American ignorance - the UN and the usually authoritative Ms. Robinson also seem to have the problem.

Of the Slovenian wines I've tried (only 2-3 dozen), the Edi Simcic have been the most impressive, by far. I've also
had a few Devri-Pax that I've liked a lot.
As for the oak question...totally clueless...as usual.
Tom

Just my 2 ¢:

Of course Slovenia has oak forests — as have Austria, Germany and many other countries. But that does not mean that these countries have any historic reputation for oak suitable for casks. Slavonian oak, however, has the historic fame of being able to produce the most long-lived casks on this planet. There are more than a handfull of wineries still using casks that are over 100 years old.

Willi Bründlmayer — who also had casks made of near-by Mannhartsberger Eiche from own forests — did a little research about which oak provenances were the most sought-after in the 19th century. The ranking:

— 1) Slavonia
— 2) France
— 3) Russia (iirc)

HTH a little.

HRH Jancis writes about Slovenia.............>

http://www.jancisrobinson.com/articles/20080226_1

It doesn't seem to me that HRH is confused, if indeed she did herself write the article on oak in the OCW. She is saying that "Slavonian Oak" (although the name refers to a region in Croatia) was grown for wine barrels in many places in Yugoslavia, including Slovenia. Seems fair enough to me. And also seems to me to rather neatly resolve a lot of the views expressed in this thread.

I'm sure it's not just Americans that are confused about all these similar sounding Eastern Place names - Slovenia/ Slavonia / Slovakia - Budapest / Bucharest - Moldova / Moldavia / Molvania

HRH Jancis wrote:

(...) but the real point of difference for some producers is their unusual fondness for keeping their baby wines in contact with the grape skins. Two extreme Friuli producers with strong Slovenian connections, Gravner and Radikon, could be said to have encouraged this tendency, which, if done well, results in thoroughly thrilling, intense, very long lived wines but can add a downright uncomfortable sour apple-skin note to whites if done badly. This unusual technique sorts out the skilful vine-growers from the rest as it can only work if the grapes are perfectly healthy.

I am not sure what she recognizes under the term "perfectly healthy" grapes. If she includes grapes with noble rot she is correct, if not, she is mistaken. The 98' Gravner Breg is made from a very large portion of grapes with botrytis, in every vintage is Gravner trying to produce as much grapes with noble rot as possible, which is very hard and risky in Brda/Collio because of the wet and humid fall months.

She is saying that "Slavonian Oak" (although the name refers to a region in Croatia) was grown for wine barrels in many places in Yugoslavia, including Slovenia.

Slavonian oak can only be grown in Slavonia.

Don't trust someone just because she is writing encyclopedias

Thank you, Tomaz, for clarifying. I thought the same, but was not sure.

Don't trust someone just because she is writing encyclopedias

Would you trust Mel Knox http://www.knoxbarrels.com/content/wines_by_mel.htm , because she wrote the article.