Value of Wine Searcher -- Question from Randy.

"Bob, what is your experience (or anyone's for that matter) regarding the accuracy of WS? "

Randy, I'll answer your question about Wine Searcher in a new thread.

I use it for several different purposes:

a. Obtain a specific wine -- generally I would ask a couple of favorite retailers -- Beekmans and Chambers Street -- and if they don't have it or can't get it -- search. At least 90% of the time I've found it -- Shadow from EJS is the most recent example.

b. Research a wine -- I'm not interested in buying, just learning more about a wine that I've tried by the glass and am looking into. Price doesn't matter so much.

c. Rarely, price compare. Here Wine Searcher gives widely varying prices as you suggest. It varies enormously -- take a personal favorite -- Insignia 2004. The current range is $55 to $255 a bottle, and I see MacArthur is near the bottom of the range at $60. I don't know the two lower priced vendors, so I'll probably place an order on MacArthur, which I've bought from in the past.

I will say I've generally enjoyed dealing with vendors I've found through Wine Searcher Pro. A very useful resource and worth the subscription to me.

My answers are similar to Bob's, with the difference that I'd say I use to (in order):
locate
find or check* best price
rarely research

(* I put check price meaning sometimes you get offers that say "this is normally a $75 wine, we're offering for $40"- I'm often curious what "normally" means)

I tend to use it to locate wines, and then like Bob I generally go for the lowest price among retailers I know and have used. On a couple of occasions a wine that I really want was only available at a retailer I didn't know (or maybe a retailer I didn't know has it for $90 and next lowest is $160, on older wines you sometimes see those spreads)- in that case I search or query boards re that retailer, that's how I've found retailers I like such as Wizers or Wine House.

I'd say that most of the time W-S is accurate. There are a few notorious "distributor list" places like Grapes in CT (not the excellent Grapes in Rye NY) and Corporate Wine in MA, though they may have been delisted. Plus places like Sokolin that list their "broker wines." But one learns to ignore.

I'd say the $25 I pay for W-S pro earns itself back 10 times over in course of year. I've found Winezap to be far less useful, though others here like it.

I also like the "notify me" alerts if a wine is not available (or not at a price I want to pay)

[Robin Garr]

With the disclosure that we're business partners of a sort with Wine-Searcher.com, having linked mutually since the very early days of the wine Web and having worked with them to set up what became their affiliate program (WLP still gets a small commission for searches based on our personalized links to wines), it's obviously hard for me to be objectively disinterested.

I do think it's a great facility, though, and having known them for well over a decade now, I know that the proprietors are honest, dedicated people who remain committed to providing an excellent service. I know that they do de-list vendors who don't play by the rules, and spend a lot of time working to improve the quality of results.

I use it mostly for research and in particular to gauge whether the retail prices that I pay and list in my TNs are typical, high or low. (And Dale, thanks for the explanation of Sokolin and Grapes CT ... I wondered why their price hits always seem so untrustworthy.)

One major problem I've found on the web generally is that wine retailers do a very poor job of keeping their stock and their web offerings in synch. Sokolin is a good example, as Dale points out -- they often list a wine on WSP, but then their site gives a pending arrival notice -- even for wines that surely have arrived months before.

I do ignore a great deal -- but still like the service very much -- on trips it's a particularly good way to learn about the local wine scene -- I've surveyed the wine scenes in Charlotte NC and Santa Fe in the last six months, for example.

And, for some reason, linking to wines and sources through WLP when writing my tasting notes makes me feel good -- somehow the notes seem more useful -- even if readers never click on the links.

the explanation of Sokolin and Grapes CT ... I wondered why their price hits always seem so untrustworthy.)

I think Grapes in Ct (I really want to emphasize this is not Grapes in Rye NY, Daniel Posner is truly one of the better wine merchants I know) was eventually delisted from Winesearcher. Last I checked, Corporate Wines and Wine Chateau in NJ (again, not the good store in I think St Louis) were still appearing. These stores list their entire distributors inventory sheets, with a set markup. The big problem tends to come when WA or the Spectator list some new hot wine, these stores list at lowest price in country, but don't have it (nor will be able to get it). Big waste of time.

Sokolin operates slightly differently. There is also a newer retailer called Cellarbrokers, also located in Hamptons (I wondered if this is an ex-employee of Sokolin). These two stores almost always have the same "inventory" of older wines, especially Bordeaux. They are mostly offering from wines offered by brokers in London. These wines do tend to be available, but with a minimum order of I think 6 bottles, and a long wait time (they have containers ship a few times a year). So not the waste of time that the distributor list stores are, but not available immediately and seldom at good prices since dollar got so weak.

Sokolin is a good example, as Dale points out -- they often list a wine on WSP, but then their site gives a pending arrival notice -- even for wines that surely have arrived months before.)

Bob, you replied while I was typing. Basically, most of the Sokolin broker wines don't cross the ocean until you order them.

[Robin Garr]

Sokolin operates slightly differently.

I've never been able to think of Sokolin with a straight face since the famous TJ bottle breakage incident back in the '80s.

"Bob, you replied while I was typing. Basically, most of the Sokolin broker wines don't cross the ocean until you order them."

I've seen that with even inexpensive wine, Dale. I just ignore them -- if I'm going to wait, I'd rather wait for Chambers Street or someone that provides great service. Thanks for the insights.

Sokolin is more of historical curiosity in my world; one of his quotes I liked: "Good wine: What is the definition of a good wine? It should start and end with a smile."

I slogged through his "Wine Investor" back in 1988; one amusing background piece:

My father passed away in 1959, and I inherited the liquor store he had founded in 1934 and operated on 23rd street in Madison Avenue in New York City.

I was never enamored of the liquor-store business, and I considered selling it, and pursuing something else.

Then a glass of wine, and the man -- Ray Milland -- intersected with my plans, altering my life forever. I went to see a picture starring him. At the time he was handsome, debonair, sophisticated, one of the leading men of the time.

One scene mesmerized me: He poured himself a glass of wine – Mateus -- and drank it with fitting stylishness. It struck me as the quintessence of sophistication and just blew me away. Never mind that the Mateus was a quite ordinary rose that I later learned was favored by hippies on drugs; I perceived it my way.

I decided to try to convert the store into a place where the Ray Millands of the world could purchase their wine.


The essence of his book: : 'Wines at the highest end of the quality ladder should be fairly well protected against the onslaught of mass-production wineries.'' If you are keen enough to pick the right wine and vintage, you will be on your way to a fortune. Better yet, do it British-style-buy as much as you can afford, enjoy some and sell the remainder in 10 years.

Finally, one of his tasting notes:

It tasted like it still had a wine taste, but not very good.
William Sokolin on a 1787 Château Margaux [price 287,000 pounds], quoted in The Essential Wine Buff, edited by Jennifer Taylor, 1996.

*****

As far as I can recall, I've never bought wine from them.

One hopes the film wasn't "The Lost Weekend"

If you're just into the occasional $10 bottle of wine from the grocery store, then obviously WSP is a waste of money.

But I wouldn't dream of doing any serious wine collecting, or making any "large" purchase of wine, without a WSP subscription.

Only a fool would throw down that kind of money without understanding the market he was entering.

Retailers can either upload info themselves, or WS crawls by and tracks. The first is generally more accurate. It can save time to note when the info was loaded (right under price). For most of the better retailers, I seldom find things are out (the exception probably being if there was a huge score that week in a mag).

Anyone can see its a data entry mistake, the bottlebuys one sounds like they entered the Haut Brion as Bahans Haut Brion. BHB (the second wine) is typically $35-60, and HB several hundred.

Moving slightly off topic then, is 8 to 1 ratio typical of price differences at different wine retailers?

No, but 2-1 is VERY common [e.g. prices ranging from $99 to $199], and 3-1 is not all that uncommon.

Again, I wouldn't make any "serious" purchase of wine without a subscription to Wine-Searcher Pro.

Of course, if you're a Bill Gates or a Carlos Slim [or, purportedly, a Vladimir Putin], then the difference between $99 and $199 doesn't even amount to chump change.

In fact, in the case of Bill Gates, the fraction of a second that your gray cells spend contemplating the distinction between $99 and $199 is almost certainly a waste of your time [at least "technically" speaking, from the point of view of the time value of money].

But for normal human beings, it's a pretty big deal.

Randy, you can sometimes get a local retailer to discount their price if you show them that they are say 50% higher than stores in the area. I emphasize stores, only because there are loss leaders on offer, often with limited stock.

My experience is quite similar to Dale's, and I do think that Northern New Jersey and NYC stores tend to be more computer savy and tie their stock and pricing to their WSP offerings pretty well.

Gary's Wine and Marketplace is a particularly good example of a shop with a very professional approach.

And, I forgive some of the smaller shops quite a bit -- they usually have one person, sometimes the owner, who handles the online stuff as a labor of love -- in my case, Beekmans in Glen Rock 15 miles away does a wonderful job, Endless Vines a mile away is really catch as catch can.

Evolving, I would say.

Unless a wine is obscure, what I usually do is look at one of the high profile web istes over here, such as Millesima.fr or 1855.com and then equivalent American sites if I want to have an idea of the difference.

But do you use the Millesima price of about $55 as your basis, or the 1855 price of $95? And how do you decide what the equivalent US site is? Sometimes Zachys is a great price, often its way over retail. I know of no retailers who are always the best price, and few that are always most expensive. But by going to Winesearcher I see about 35 US retailers listing 2003 BHB, and about 28 of them are between $45-70. The majority of the French ones are $50-90. though there are again outliers (Finest Wines shows at both $186 and $226). One site, one minute to check both (just switching country). Pretty easy to disregard outliers as either mistaken or just stupidly priced. There's no way I can see its faster or more efficient to go to multiple sites (and what Millesima and 1855 show on their site is going to be what shows on Winesearcher).

I'd say I use WS several times every week, and the mistakes on the lower priced offers for each wine are fairly rare (I don't actually know anyone who would try to order the highest priced offer, but if it floats your boat). Maybe sometimes someone lists Mouton Cadet as Mouton Rothschild, but if you see 30 offers between $300 and $400 and one at $8.99, it's not exactly genius to disregard it.

A broader look gets you a fuller picture.

I do use WSP to see if something I'm interested in is being offered at a decent price. I seldom buy at the lowest price since I tend to buy from places that I have a track record with and I know how they treat the wines and how careful they are with provenance.

Another useful tool for recent vintages in CellarTrackers users average price paid feature. For older vintages the info is usually more depressing than useful.

In addition, CT displays Winebid average price for each bottle for previous quarter (that might only be for contributing users)/ Both useful.

Dale, good point on the Winebid feature. I've never set it up because I do not want to know.

Can one of you who subscribe tell me how many - if any - retailers from Oklahoma list on Wine Searcher? I'd be willing to subscribe to it if I knew that my area would be served by the listings. But it would be useless if a search never returned any hits on a wine in my area.

Here you go, Robert:

Name Type Services Flag Address (USA) Web

Cabin Creek Vineyard & Winery
Winery
Wine Club 32153 S 4360 Road, Big Cabin, OK 74332 Price-List

Canadian River Winery
Winery
Wines:14
7050 Slaughterville Road, Lexington, OK 73051 Price-List

Deer Creek Vineyard
Winery
Wines:6
1010 Silver Oaks Drive, Edmond, OK Price-List

Joes Place Fine Wine & Spirits
Retail
Wines:44
1330 East Alameda, Norman, OK 73071 Price-List

Nuyaka Creek Winery
Winery
Wines:27
35230 South 177th West Ave., Bristow, OK 74010 Price-List

StableRidge Vineyards & Winery
Winery
Wines:9
2016 Rt.66, West Stroud, OK 74079

Just a quick comment on comparing US and French sites I mentioned: The TVA in France is about 20% and sales tax is always included on the prices. I wish this was the case in California (in general, nothing to do with wine).

If about 20%, the French range would be more about $60-110, as several of the lower priced French retailers (Caves Elzevir, GVF, Chateau.net) say tax isn't included.

In US, retailers don't charge sales tax for out of state sales, so I figure in shipping for those, shipping and 8% for NY retailers that I need to ship, or 8% for NY places I can pick up. Of course I am a fiend for finding those places with free shipping deals.